The Animal Turn
Animals are increasingly at the forefront of research questions – Not as shadows to human stories, or as beings we want to understand biologically, or for purely our benefit – but as beings who have histories, stories, and geographies of their own. Each season is set around themes with each episode unpacking a particular animal turn concept and its significance therein. Join Claudia Hirtenfelder as she delves into some of the most important ideas emerging out of this recent turn in scholarship, thinking, and being.
The Animal Turn
S3E10: Grad Review with Anmol Chowdhury and Shubhangi Srivastava
Claudia reviews Season 3 with Shubhangi Srivastava and Anmol Chowdhury, currently PhD Candidates in the ERC funded project titled Urban Ecologies. Together they talk about some of the gaps in the season, primarily discussions about methods, and they delve into some of the overlapping themes in the season including management, entanglement, power, and aesthetics.
Date recorded: 25 August 2021
Shubhangi Srivastava is currently a doctoral research scholar with the ERC Grant project, Urban Ecologies, at the National Institute of Advanced Studies (NIAS), Bangalore. Her doctoral research is centred around studying the ecological, political and socio-economic dimensions related to human-dog relationship in the context of urban India. Shubhangi has been working towards combined methods of ethnography and ethology to study nonhuman animal living in the urban. Central to her work are the ideas of beastly places and the politics around the urban animals in India. She developed an interest in human-animal relations during the course of her M.Phil. in Anthropology from University of Delhi, where she worked on the human-macaque conflicts in Northern India, looking at the cultural and religious aspects of the relationship. She can be reached on her email shubha.srivastava06@gmail.com or on twitter @Shubhangi1057.
Anmol Chowdhury is currently working in the Urban Ecologies Project (funded by ERC) at the National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India looking at lives of macaques in urban India. Through their work, they are attempting a conversation between ethnographic and ethological perspectives of thinking about animals. Their other interests include gender and queer theory, geopolitics of Kashmir, folk music and traditional foods. (@kashqueeri) and email address (anmol.c1234@gmail.com).
Claudia (Towne) Hirtenfelder is the founder and host of The Animal Turn. She is a PhD Candidate in Geography and Planning at Queen’s University and is currently undertaking her own research project looking at the geographical and historical relationships between animals (specifically cows) and cities. Contact Claudia via email (info@theanimalturnpodcast.com) or follow her on Twitter (@ClaudiaFTowne).
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SPEAKER_02:So, how this program has moved from a lens which is from a point where they were uh talking about controlling the population, controlling rabies as a health factor. So these these factors are still there. Another level has come across, which is cleaning the city, cleaning the city spaces in accordance with the upper upper middle class and above uh classes in these urban areas, in these cities.
SPEAKER_03:Welcome back to the final episode of season three of the Animal Tome, which is focused on animals and the urban. I think we've had a really good season of unpacking some of the important concepts related to the urban. There are so many more I would have liked to have spoken about, things like urban ecology, urban arcs, novel ecosystems. But uh, of course, there's only so much you can talk about in a single season. And I think that we've done a fairly good job of touching on some of the most important themes and ideas currently circulating scholarship related to animals and the urban, as well as pointing to how important the urban is as a space for considering and thinking about not only the lives of animals inside cities, but as well as those outside of them. So urban areas are really important spaces, and uh, I hope that that's become clear throughout the season. Uh, before I introduce today's guests for the grad review, I just wanted to say thank you once again to Animals in Philosophy, Politics, Law and Ethics Apple for sponsoring this podcast. A particular thank you to Sue Donaldson and Will Kimliker for all their guidance and their support since the beginning of launching this podcast. I really don't think I could have done it without them. So just a thank you there. Uh I also wanted to point out that if you have any ideas for future seasons of the Animal Turn, I'm now starting to develop other sponsorship relationships. The next season, which I'll speak a bit about at the end of this episode, has some sponsors, yay, uh, in addition to Apple. And uh it's really an exciting opportunity, I think, to work with other research groups on developing a season that kind of focuses in on particular themes and ideas, as well as potentially opening up opportunities for grad students. If you've got some ideas for future seasons and ways in which uh we could potentially collaborate, or ways in which your research institute could sponsor a season, that would be really amazing. Uh, feel free to reach out to me to continue that conversation. Info at the AnimalTone Podcast.com. Uh, and also I just wanted to right here at the end say please feel free to use these podcasts and particular episodes or whole seasons as tools in the classroom. If you are a teacher or a lecturer and you think that these ideas are useful for your students, please, please, please uh put them in your syllabi as supplementary material. And let me know. Let me know how it goes. If it is useful, if your students respond to these episodes. Uh, this is kind of where my goal is seeing this podcast as a pedagogical tool. Uh let's move on. Today's episode is already, really long, and I don't want to keep you too much. Uh, but we had a really good conversation, and the guests today in my grad review are both uh PhD candidates with the ERC grant project Urban Ecologies at the National Institute of Advanced Studies in Bangalore. Through their work, they are attempting conversations between ethnographic and ethological perspectives of thinking about animals. And we talk a fair bit about this in today's episode. In fact, almost the first half of the episode is kind of dedicated to speaking a bit about their work as well as some of the gaps that we found in the season. Shabanji Srivastava's PhD work is primarily centered on understanding human-dog relationships in urban India, whereas Animal Chaduri's work is focused primarily on monkeys. We delve into a whole bunch of different concepts and ideas, and I think we really get into a big stride in the last third of the interview where we're really just kind of riffing off one another and thinking about some of these ideas and how they could be used in future urban scholarship. Let's get started straight away with finding out a little bit about both of you. So I know that you're both working on a project together, actually. So it's kind of fun to have you here. Could you possibly both tell us a little bit about uh yourselves as well as the project that you're working on?
SPEAKER_01:I'm I'm currently uh uh working on the monkeys. I'm working with monkeys in the cities of Delhi and Gohati in India. So a larger project, I think, um, as Shuhangi will also tell you, we have two other people uh with us in the project. With the four of us, we're we're kind of looking at urban ecologies uh in India, in Indian cities, global south. That's the kind of focus. And uh and the four of us have different focus animal groups. So I kind of look at the monkeys, Shuhangi is kind of looking at dogs, two of our other friends, they're looking at cattle and uh the uh the smaller animal husbandry animals such as chickens, pigs, goats. So this is what the larger project is about, and uh where I kind of feature in is I was you know, after my master's, I completed my master's in anthropology. So I was trying to look in to look at certain opportunities where I might be able to do some work with animals, uh, not per se in the urban, but uh where I might see certain kinds of gaps and uh uh especially around policy circles. I was wondering if I can you know go there. But then this opportunity came in and I just you know kind of applied for it, and uh the project sounded really, really exciting, and um so this is how I kind of you know got absorbed into the project, and um though I have uh zoology and an anthropology background, so I kind of uh I was very conflicted about how to kind of approach this work. I've I've done some uh ethnographic work in during my master's, but but altogether I had you know a technical training in zoology during my bachelor's. So um so this project was uh really useful. So that's amazing. Precisely. So this so this project in that sense was also um innovative. It wanted to be more innovative. So I think it became a space where I could kind of have this conversation between you know zoology, anthropology, and then really learn about the geographical theory, which is altogether new to me.
SPEAKER_03:So yeah. And this, sorry, I think you did say it. This is part of your your PhD now. This project for all of you, you are you are PhD students that are working on these different uh animals. Yes, yes. Okay, that's incredible. How like sometimes I feel like that's something I miss as a as a PhD student in animal studies is having fellow PhD students to work with, right? To kind of um think through these problems because they are they are complicated. And the fact that you have both uh anthropology and zoology in your in your realm of interests um and knowledge is just amazing because I think it can sometimes feel a bit overwhelming when you're trying to grapple with animal studies and you need to know the like the politics, you need to know the economics, you need to know biology, you need to know a variety of things. And uh and you uh it can really feel crazy sometimes. Um so that's incredible. That's so interesting. And what what year are you in now?
SPEAKER_01:Uh so we're in our fourth year of our PhD. Basically, this is supposed to be the writing phase, you know, but the but the past year and a half uh stalled uh some of our uh fieldwork programs. So we kind of couldn't really keep up with those. So there are some commitments that we're kind of chasing right now and uh finishing some of those you know interviews, very, very mandatory interviews in the cities, speaking to certain officials, you know, and um making some observations uh with our uh you know focal animals that we have. So kind of finishing that up, then kind of get into this writing mode. Hopefully, we'll get done uh you know by uh next year, August. That's what the aim is.
SPEAKER_03:Amazing, amazing. Me too. I'm hoping to be done by next year, August, okay? So this time next year, the three of us need to uh meet back and be like, how are you doing? Yeah and uh and be kind to each other, I think.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:Uh Shabhangji, maybe you can uh step in now and tell us a little bit. So we've got a kind of a sense of the project now, but maybe a bit of how you came to be in this uh in this project involved in the work you're doing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so it's very interesting that we both are here to give me and Anmoul are here in this podcast because we go way back a bit. Uh we're brought from the same department of anthropology before we joined the the PhD. Although we did not know each other, we were from different batches, but uh we met uh during the PhD interviews and everything, and you're like, oh, we're from the same department. Yeah, so uh same thing, like uh I uh did my anthropology and I became interested in studying the primates was uh primate behavior was one of the subjects we were taught in my masters, and that was an interesting point, and uh but it was more of understanding the evolutionary histories and um behaviors of primates, and uh I followed that up in my MPL in anthropology from the same depart uh University of Delhi, and uh from there, like I we were uh I was interested in this project because um I was already studying human-animal relations during my M. I was working as a research associate, and uh I was in the field collecting data about it and working towards my dissertation on on uh uh human macaque interactions, and I was interested in that, and then uh fortunately I came across this project which is about like uh the like the official uh name of the project is uh urban ecologies governing non-human living in cities. So, yeah, so we we are under the project, we are uh looking at two cities as Anmal said, uh Delhi and uh Gohati, which are uh Delhi is more of a central capital city in India, and Gohati is an eastern city which is uh which which could be called uh an upcoming urban center in the eastern India. So we are sort of looking at urbanization and how uh non-human animals are living in these uh uh urban centers in the global south, and in the global south itself, also we are uh uh looking uh through a comparative lens, we are understanding this uh concept about urban animals uh in these two cities. So the uh prior to COVID, the plan was to uh do like uh one year in Delhi, one year in Gohati, and then have a comparative data set to see um the two uh the lives of non-humans in these two cities, but now we are adjusting as everyone to these uh new norms in our work. Yeah, so I mean I I ideally our work field work should have been over, but we have maybe two months more to tie up some loose ends in Gohati, and then uh it will be full-fledged writing mode for our PhD.
SPEAKER_03:Amazing. And you're focused on tugs now.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, so my uh my work uh is for my for this project and towards the PhD. I'm uh studying uh street dogs specifically. So and I'm uh looking, uh I'm combining two methods of uh behavioral observations from ethology and ethnographic method uh observations from uh anthropology to look at to uh study the lives of dogs in interactions with humans in these two cities. Uh so like I usually uh follow the dogs and uh they lead me to uh whoever they want to, and then I talk to them or look at how they are maneuvering to the city or living their life and like every day, what they are doing, how they are doing, what decisions they are making, what they are eating, why they're eating that, where they are going, where they're sleeping, yeah, and like who they are interacting with, their own species, humans, other species, uh cows, uh, whoever is there, and like even the cars and non-hum non-uh inanimate objects around them, how they're interacting with them. It brings out a very interesting aspect of their life, which I feel is very important. That's what I'm trying to look at and include.
SPEAKER_03:I I'm really happy to have you guys here because we haven't really spoken, I think, in in depth in this in this season actually about ecology. And and urban ecology kind of came up several times uh in the interviews. And uh in the previous season, in season two, we spoke a bit about cognitive uh ethology. But here we could have, I think, also uh grappled with what does ethnography look like in in the urban? What are some of the methods that folks could use to understand urban animals? And and in hindsight, you know, you can't fit everything, of course, into to 10 episodes, but uh I think having some sense of what these methods are, like how how do you we talk about the significance and the importance of seeing these urban animals, but how do we like how do we go about viewing their lives or analyzing their lives? And I think some of the work uh you two are doing with regards to like melding uh ethology and ethnography and ecology, all the E-words, the triple E's, um I think that's it's kind of at the forefront of of research right now with animals in the urban, right?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I'm absolutely terrified doing this work because you know, because there's no sense of clarity in what you know what we're really doing, because we we know the questions, we know what we're asking, we know, and now that we've been in the field, we know what the field, you know, side sort of looks like. Um but to really, you know, you this this uh it it all boil boils down to how are we really kind of um trying to bring out those perspectives specifically kind of focused around the animal itself, you know what what the animal is what is the animal really doing in the city, you know? I mean, of course there can be very, very anthropocentric descriptions of what the animal is doing, but um how do you kind of either minimize those anthropocentric effects or do you detach yourself from uh that practice of writing in a particular way? How do you kind of do that? So I I and I I think for each one of us it's different because we are all different people, one, but then we're also dealing with different animals themselves, then we're also interacting with different kinds of people who the animals interact with. So, in in effect, you know, it's it's all you know, it's it's extremely diff different and variable and so uncertain that it's scary. That you know, are we really doing what we are doing and does it really make sense? And you know, and this is this is me. I'm I'm supposed to be in the fourth year clearly, and uh but mentally I don't think that I'm I'm I'm quite there, you know.
SPEAKER_03:I'm happy I'm not alone. I'm happy I'm not the only one entering my fourth year feeling like, what the hell am I doing? Um, I mean, it sounds like you guys have a pretty good grip on things, so I wouldn't be too worried. Uh, but yeah, I I I can totally relate to kind of that fear of you know, of there's a lot of responsibility also in looking at these animals. I think a lot of us come to doing this research because we care about animals, right? We care about the the ways in which they're treated. And uh our research has implications. Uh, and especially at the PhD level, I think you start to feel the weight of that. Um, but yeah, it's it's a lot to it's a lot to contend with.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so like just to add like what Anmal was saying, it's definitely um uh terrifying to see to understand how and what are we going to do. I mean, initially when we started in Delhi with our field work, we knew that we have to bring together two different methods, we knew that we have to study these animals with our questions which haven't been done actually in the field, they have been theoretically understood. There are there are we have read up on these things in papers, but going to the field and with with in a very different setting the uh altogether, like uh in Delhi, and then again then moving to Gohati, which is again a very different culture, very different ecology. Then how do we do it? It's very difficult. But then also it comes before we go to writing with each animal. I think all four of us, we faced a different methodological challenge that we we went to a field with certain, like for instance, if I'm telling you, take an example from uh from my own work. I went to the field with a certain uh uh to uh with the the behavioral observations, how to do it. I had an idea from before how uh what method, what software to use, how to go about the ethogram. But when I when I uh the areas which I was dealing with in uh dealing with in Delhi, the animal which I was dealing with, these settings were so different that the uh the plan I had totally failed there. So I the interactions were happening so quickly that if I had stuck to the previous plan, I would have missed on a lot of things. I wouldn't I I have to literally run after the dogs for like kilometers because they're chasing some other dog uh for for that long out of their territory. So yeah, and at that time you can't just like you can't absorb so many things which are happening around you. You can't uh uh enter all those data data entry points into your software at that point. So I was just I just moved on to okay, at this point, I just want to see what is happening, record what is happening, and then later go on and analyze it. So I think these are things which you come across with with these even new methods which we are trying to do, where we are trying to combine ethology, ethnography, or ecology, even within that, we had a lot of challenges, and this is what I also felt like during the season, these things came up like uh the the methods to study urban animals. They did uh come up in instances where like Michelle Westlake and she uh she was talking about and colonies observations, or Marcus Bainsrock was talking about the uh his study about hyenas and the ethnographic approach he took. But I felt that these were left out uh and they were quite open-ended, and if and possibly this is something I felt nice that okay, this is some uh if we are in this episode, we could maybe contribute towards that gap which was in the uh season. And and I and I think yeah, these these methods are very important to talk about at the moment because urban animals we are studying them, we we have moved towards the animal turn to uh studying these animals, but how to do it when a researcher actually reaches the field. I think that's a big problem that uh a lot of us face, a lot of us are facing. So I think a discussion about that is very important.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean it is something Marcus brought up in the episode. Uh, you know, he was also a student who just kind of showed up in a city, he was completely outside of his own, you know, cultural and geographical location and had to kind of figure it out. Yeah, and speaking about methods is kind of it's kind of like the background noise. You know, we all read these really exciting, interesting papers about theory, and sometimes you need to actually just get to the nuts and bolts of like when I want to, how do I do this and how do I do this ethically? Right. So that was also something that um that came up a fair bit with Michelle as well, where she said, you know, she would start to observe or she would start to do tests and start to, you know, confine some animals as a way of trying to understand design. And through that process, she started to actually have ethical quandaries. Like, is this appropriate? Um, and I think starting to speak about these is is um the right way to go, right? So so maybe before we start uh talking a bit about the the themes between um some episodes, which I think we're we're doing now already, uh maybe you could tell us a little bit about the methods that you've been using. Because you you said they're like enter data points and stuff, and this seems foreign to me, right? So it's so to me, ethnography at least, um, is you know, going and just doing deep observations, taking down notes. And Anul, you mentioned, you know, we all write differently. Like ethnography is in some respects a very immersive, yeah, uh reflective practice where you you write down your observations, and sometimes you're not even sure exactly what you're observing until you reflect and you look at your notes again. Um but coming from the primarily social side of of research, I don't think I would ever use words like data points, right? To to think about this. So um, and I actually didn't even know what you were talking about when you were like, and then I just need to enter the data points. So so what is uh what is that, what what does that mean? What are you guys doing when you're observing your your animals in your cities?
SPEAKER_02:Um so I'll just uh clarify this word. So when uh I'm observing an interaction, uh so then there'll be an interactor who's initiating the interaction, there'll be a recipient who who is on the receiving end of that interaction, and there'll be um uh the interaction itself. So these uh in uh with the help of ethogram, which are developed extensively on uh different and are different for every uh animal which is which are being studied, and so based on that there are certain codes of interactions, and then you uh you can break down a particular interaction, say a human is feeding uh one of my focal animals night. So that's one of my focal animals, so uh a human feeding a focal uh night, so that would be my interaction. We will have codes, and that would be make one data point, and then each data point which would also have certain uh contributing factors uh about the weather or how many people are around uh that uh that specific area where the interaction is happening, uh what which other dogs of the same pack are nearby, which other dogs of the other pack are nearby, when this interaction is happening, and so these all contribute to one data point, and based on these several uh uh entries, we get a data set on which you analyze. And then so this is this is a very crisp uh way of uh like uh explaining what uh how I'm doing observations. But this so these there are softwares which uh ecological ecological softwares where uh which you can use right away to enter for these entries in the field, like uh, for example, I was using handy base, which is one of the softwares. Um, but it became very difficult at that moment when the dog was interacting and there was, I mean, it it could be easier if you're very much adapted to that uh uh to entering data or to to that software, but as I said, I'm very uh I'm not so good with technology, so I was maybe that's one of the drawbacks or the bias which was there. So I couldn't do that at the moment. I wanted to look at what was happening, and then also there are people who who uh these were very um uh densely populated areas where I was studying. So every time I'm standing there with my phone, with my laptop, I'm sort of an outsider in that community, in that area. So every uh almost every minute or two, a person would come up to me and ask me, What are you doing? What are you studying here? What are you doing? They're very much interested in my work, and those were actually very rich interactions which I used to have with such people who were interested in my work, and then they would get to know that oh, you're studying dogs, nobody has ever studied dogs, why you're studying dogs? And they just start these uh questions which they pose to me, they just start make them think also about the dog which they might not have before, and then they they these interactions have uh and these um uh conversations did give me a lot of interesting insights into how and uh what people were thinking about these uh dogs in their area. So I think this way I could connect the two methods.
SPEAKER_01:I think for me it was slightly different because I so when I was when I was working um uh uh on my uh dissertation, there was a small brief dissertation during my um uh BSA in zoology. And the only thing that finally kind of fascinated me was observing animals. And I realized, I mean, I was very I mean, the only reason I took zoology was because, you know, I was like, oh, cells, very interesting. And I was very interested in cells and understanding cell biology and the kind of metabolic pathways and so on and so forth. But but then I was like, oh, you know, you're I'm sitting here in the lab, and you know, it's not as it's not becoming as fascinating as I thought it would in due course. And then slowly by the by the end, by the end, you know, the final year, uh, there was one paper on um animal behavior. And I kind of looked at that and I was like, oh, you know, this is really interesting. This is something that that interests me because it's talking to the evolutionary theory, it's it's talking to um, you know, observing animals, what they're really doing. And that's something that I've personally always done because there have always been animals around wherever I've lived, um, you know, across India. And you know, they've always been cows, they've always been crows, they've always been sparrows, um, uh you'll have small centipedes walking in at any point, you know, all of these insects, from insects to birds to larger mammals, and uh to living around areas where you also have sl you know the Himalayan bears coming down, you know, whenever they feel like um uh uh leopards, uh you know, snow uh leopards, you know, coming down. And so there have been animals coming in and around human habitation, and so those were some kind certain kinds of triggers. But I was not very happy with the the methods that were used specifically within zoology because they were in you know in some way uh they wanting they wanted to quantize the behavior, they wanted to measure something, you know. And and it was for precisely for that reason I kind of moved from uh zoology to anthropology because I thought you know maybe anthropology will give me that flexibility, you know, that kind of edge. Those books that I've heard of where people have written about just you know one of the most the most mundane activities, you know, the everyday activities, but the but they're still interesting to read because you write it you you you read such descriptions of those uh you know activities. Why not kind of do something that like that with animals? And so I kind of moved from there to this anthropology, then I got interested in primates because anthropology would only only study primates, they wouldn't be interested in anything else. So um, and finally coming down to this project, then the first few months I was so so troubled by what what how am I really going to do this? How am I really going to uh get that you know data from the field, how am I really going to observe monkeys? Because uh what I had previous previously done during my master's uh thesis was um you know very typical ethological quantitative methods, you make the ethogram and you know you have certain behaviors that you have described, then you see uh at what intervals do those behaviors kind of happen, and then you also have a time interval uh within which you lose, you know, you're not supposed to observe the animal because you're only observing them at those particular time stamps, and so you you are you're essentially you losing 15 minutes or 20 minutes in an hour, depending on what kind of interval you've kept. So that slightly troubled me. And then I thought, you know, can we kind of look at do more of an ethnography? Can we really call it an ethnography? Because there was some sort of hesitation that we received from uh anthropologists within India, people we spoke to, they were like, Oh, you know, no, no, no, you don't do anthropology with an you know, this ethnography with animals. It's supposed to entirely be with humans, you can speak to them and so on and so forth. So, you know, it opened like this this this entire box, which has already been open for like years, you know, what animals can do and what animals can't.
SPEAKER_02:The ethnos means humans, you can't do anthropological.
SPEAKER_01:Precisely, yeah. And so now what I'm really doing in the field, and I'm I've finally become confident, you know, of what I'm really doing now by the third year, by the end of third year. I just go, I am just following troops of monkeys initially, just you know, doing nothing. Go wherever they go, you know, just follow them, interact with whoever they interact with, and not I I don't choose the people I speak to because I because I respond to only the kinds of actions that the macaques are doing. And then select some individuals that I find fascinating, they're doing certain kinds of you know behaviors, and you know, kind of follow them uh over a period of time, you know, weeks together, sometimes, you know, and and and the observation hours might range from say any anywhere between four hours a day to twelve hours a day, you know. So so so you feel that maybe you know some tiny bit about the animal now, you know, just a bit, but just a bit, because you you don't know about their internal lives, how they're in interacting with um others when you're not there, how are they interacting with within themselves, their groups when you're not there, how are they interacting with other animals? Because you always see these interactions happening, but a researcher, quote unquote, can only be there for you know, you know, so many hours or so much time.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, and those are questions, of course, that anthropology has dealt with for a long time. And and I really appreciate how you're trying to bring together, I think, ecological work has brought us a lot of understanding and a lot of appreciation for how animals. Are right a lot of appreciation for how animals' bodies work, how they relate to their environments. You know, a lot of that work is responsible for a lot of our fascination with animals. Um, but on the other hand, like you, I think, like you rightfully said, is uh the there are limits to quantitative knowledge as well, just like there are limits to qualitative uh knowledge and the time we're able to go. And I think melding together these, also somewhat embracing our ability to to empathize with and to appreciate different animal cultures um is really an exciting field, but I think really important if we're going to destabilize kind of the human in how we think and how we create knowledge. And of course, uh I'm working primarily in in the archives and in historical documents, and that raises a whole different um set of questions about method, right? Uh, you know, I I was trying to grapple and think about how I can see animal subjectivity in the archives. And one of the contentions I got back is like, no, no, no, listen, animal ethnographers are starting to do this kind of work. Um, they're really thinking through how to grapple with animal subjectivity. There's no way we could possibly try and uh, you know, see this in in historical documents. So I think um, and I'm still working through that myself. I haven't got an answer, of course, but it is interesting how the different spaces you go and the different um the fields that you use to help you understand, whether it's anthropology, ecology, um, you know, history, geography, these these really do help you to contend with with it. But perhaps now we can um switch to talking a little bit about uh the season. And I think that this conversation about methods has really it's it's kind of given us a really good backdrop to start this conversation because I think we you kind of get a sense of how hard it is to know animals and see animals.
SPEAKER_02:So just before moving on, uh I wanted to add a bit to what you said because you talked you're talking about archives, and that's something um I am looking into for the to look at how dogs have been controlled and their how dogs have been viewed in the official documents which are available in the beast in these two cities and uh or like in pre-Conodian times or uh after independence, how when these uh all programs, uh the uh birth control programs around dogs, they came across and how what was what were the proceedings or what were people talking about, how were they looking about at dogs? And and I under and I really uh agree with your qu uh when you say that it's not about the disciplines, not about if if whether the archives are to believe by historians or ethnography should be done by anthropologists. I think it's to we should go through up into this with through our questions and which which method is actually helping us answer that question in a better way. I think if we're combining these um different techniques, different uh tools which are used by uh uh there's there's always a pro uh prose for all these methods and which are being used since uh since these uh disciplines have been there, and then if we're using them, I think it gives us a larger picture of what the animal is doing and how the animal is living. And since these animals have been there and they've adapted to the rapidly changing urban processes, there is something they're doing, there's something they're doing well. So, how do we reach there? How do we understand what how their life is, and just not in a broader population sense, but the individual dog and its individual its everyday activity. That's I think which is much more of an importance, and to reach there, I feel a lot of different methods, a combined methodology is what yeah, we I have been using, we all have been using, and I think you're uh absolutely correct in saying that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, I think I mean I I said it in the interview with Philip Howells. I really think anyone interested in animals should do a trip to the archives because uh how are we going to see their histories? And oddly enough, uh people might be surprised by just how ubiquitous animals are in the archives. They haven't been indexed properly, and archives take a lot of time, right? It's not like walking into a library and saying, I'd like to see a book about dogs. You you have to sift through a lot of this uh governance material. Um but I think that if you're interested in in an animal, just like if you're interested in in a human or in a culture, you should try to center them, you know, find out what their context is. And to some extent, we have we have documents that have been created by humans, sure, but um they do offer many regards some observations from a time gone, uh, which is useful and and powerful, I think. Like you said, even in terms of understanding ecologies, how do we understand how spaces have changed over time? These documents really house a lot of a lot of information.
SPEAKER_02:And even them not being present, even them not being present in these archives, them being not represented in these documents is also saying a story in itself, I think, which is very important to bring out.
SPEAKER_03:And how they're represented, right? So uh something that's been interesting for me is I I look a lot at tax documents, and uh dogs came up, but they came up, they weren't the first animal to come up, and the movement that they did on the page, they kind of they they were handwritten, and then at some point they moved and they had two columns, and then it was then they were separated by gender, whereas other animals weren't. Um so what does this tell us about the societies that they were in at the time, right? Um which is fascinating to think through. Uh okay, so let's let's pull apart some more of these themes that we've seen coming up. So we've I think in general we've agreed that the the season could have grappled more with with methods and possibly even spoken a bit more about ecology. Uh, but what are some of the synergies that you saw cutting across some of these episodes? So if you were to think of you know a theme or something for you that really stood out in the season, uh, what what would it be for you?
SPEAKER_01:So the kind of work that I've been doing, I was trying, I was trying to understand how some of these conversations are speaking to my work. One, I would say that all of these uh episodes were brilliant because the urban and the animal, the question of the urban and the animal and the animal in the urban is uh really like a broad one. It's it's we can't possibly cover it in any kinds of or any number of episodes. So I believe kind of introducing this entire uh uh set of themes in this uh season served brilliantly because frankly, ever since we've started this PhD, we've we've come across all of these themes in the recording because we see people really working on all of these things, and and we read people who you've kind of you know you've had we've uh met people who've uh been on your episode, so and and that's fascinating because you understand that oh, you know, there are people working on it, but the other thing is with with the kind of work that I'm doing with bunkeys in uh Delhi and Gohati in terms of the archival work specifically again, a lot of themes around management have kind of appeared, but all of those have were never indexed within management, all of those were indexed within international affairs, they were largely classified under international affairs because the use of monkeys essentially was for biomedical reasons, and India was a large, large, you know, a huge uh supplier of uh lab testing animals, specifically monkeys, and this has been throughout the past century. It's interesting to see that there are many breaks in it. There are many breaks in it in the sense the British initially allow this kind of bio, you know, this biomedical use of animals and you know understanding of them as this commodity that can be used to better the lives of humans, you know. That's the intention behind you know these kinds of animal testings. And then you have at one point the first prime minister putting a ban on it because uh the animals that are going to the US they are not being used for biomedical reasons anymore, they are being used for defense, uh they're being used to test defense weapons in the US. And uh the Prime Minister said the Indian Prime Minister says, you know, this is a blatant lie, and I'm not going to allow you to take any more animals. And then there's a there's a brief kind of relaxation in which he agrees that you know so many animals will only be given per year, so on and so forth, until there's a ban on the uh transport of uh monkeys altogether in 1979. And uh and in all of these documents that you see how captivity or capturing of animals and translocation of animals, specifically these monkeys, is very, very central. Uh I mean, an entire discussion could be fashioned out of the different kinds of cages that were designed uh through these years, you know. Uh keeping in mind uh also the comfort of the animal, so to say. That is what they would say, you know. It's it's it's also to kind of make the animal more comfortable while it's being taken from the Indian subcontinent to the US. And so so this so this uh conversation around um pervasive captivity kind of spoke to me because um of course there's there are many aspects to my work, and this is something that I feel uh I need to talk about more. And I mean it this this this conversation pushed me to think more about these connections because I'm now in my writing phase. I'm so you know, I'm thinking about these things, and what Nicola was trying to say, I kind of understand that not only in the physical sense, because there have there's still being the monkeys are still being caught and translocated to areas outside the city because there can be no more translocations outside the country, which would keep the population in check, just so to say. So in Delhi, there are there are strong, strong practices of control. Uh monkeys are absolutely to be monkeys, dogs, cattle, all kinds of animals are absolutely to be kept outside away from the streets, basically. And uh this was based on a petition, a writ petition that was filed in 2001 by a lawyer who lived in one of the more fancy well-off colonies in uh South Delhi, the southern district of Delhi.
SPEAKER_03:But what I think is really useful about Nkula's use of uh pervasive captivity, and I have to admit, like that that in that interview also really smoked me. Is he's not just talking about captivity, I think, in the obvious sense. He's not just saying, he's not just saying, okay, there there are animals that are caged, which I think many of us would would appreciate. And that came up, I think, several times throughout uh, you know, also with Paula Akari. She spoke a lot about animals that are being uh caged. But I think Paula and Nicola, their work together actually, I think there's some really interesting synergies happening here with with regards to how she was thinking about invisibility and how he was thinking about uh captivity. Because his idea that animals become reliant on the urban and they they become captive to the urban in some respects, and and not necessarily intentionally, but that they are captive through their relations and that this is a spectra of uh, or there are spectra of captivities, kind of melded to me with what with what Paolo was saying about there being a spectra of invisibilities as well, uh, and the ways in which uh animals are are seen or not seen, and not just in the physical sense, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. The other thing um about um the relationship between the concept of the this notion of captivity and invisibility also comes from this discussion around more than human, right? Because when we say more than human or the people who've been talking about more than human, they're also talking about only certain kinds of animals. Because you know, more than human captures the gaze, the human gaze of only certain animals that are m either more visible or you know, animals uh that have been, at least in the conservation circles, been used to generate a lot of revenue. So, for example, the project tiger that's been going on in India. I do I in in my reading of this entire situation, I don't see how much of it has actually been done for the tigers themselves. It's it's also about maintaining aesthetic natural reserves so that people keep visiting, there are tourist attractions. And at the end of the day, you always have um uh you know um animals um uh I mean at the expense of the animals. So this so this uh and I was reading an interesting paper, I might I'll I'll I I'll tell you who it was by, and they were talking about something called the less than human in the city, as opposed to the more than human, and in that they are basically trying to say that there are certain kinds of animals that become so so invisible in the in the in the everyday city, even though they are there. It's not only that the human, uh the non-humans become the less than human, it's also the humans that are interacting with those less than human animals. So this kind of flows into this uh the other conversation about precarity and informality, right? That there are certain animals the state would like to look at, and there are other animals that the state wouldn't want to look at. Even though the dogs are being uh the the animal birth control programs are be done are being run, dogs are being caught, you know, and and and and reintroduced to the same areas. But the monkeys are being taken out from the city to another space which is being imagined as a haven for them so that they would never leave that space. Uh but but that's not how it's working out. The monkeys the monkeys spill over to the surrounding areas, essentially kind of causing the same trouble there rather than in um in the city in the city and in the more in the more elite neighborhoods, right? So they are being taken out from the more elite neighborhoods. So the problem then is not of the elite, it's also of the migrant worker who lives in Delhi, the migrant worker who lives at the periphery of Delhi.
SPEAKER_03:So what I'm hearing here are two kind of different uh cross-cutting themes. So the one I think which you raised right at the beginning is the theme of management and how management entails a whole bunch, a whole range of biopolitical interventions that that also operate through different um captivities and different visibilities and invisibilities that that impact a variety of populations. And I think part of that is also kind of this idea of entanglement and that different populations are entangled with one another through precarity or through privilege, uh, which also you know is related to management. Shabanji, maybe you could jump in here uh also. I don't know if you want to contribute to that theme a little bit, or if you've got another kind of cross-cutting theme that you would like to highlight.
SPEAKER_02:What actually related to me from the season was of course it it relates to what Anmoul has been talking about. It's it's the theme of biopolitics and the power dynamics in the human-animal relations, with the which uh Kritikar Srinamashan was talking about, and like how she talks about the birth control program and the breeding practices which are aimed at controlling the populations of dogs in India, and like she she does the comparative work with the with the program in UK and India and how that that works out. But what I have seen in my work here is that uh I try to look at uh this program from its beginning and how it is happening and unfolding now in the urban and in these two cities. And and what come what comes across is interesting that uh it did it did start and did grow from a biopolitical lens, but it it has moved on to a politics of aesthetics, what Anol is talking about. It's it's when when they when this so these programs are largely aimed at controlling the street dog population, sterilizing the street dog populations. And these street dogs in India, they are mostly considered uh quote unquote dirty or uh unwanted in these clean urban spaces. And uh which are the complaints which these municipal corporations or the authorities they get against these dogs. So these so they uh these uh uh programs they are much more towards, for instance, if you look at the uh the entire uh work around the uh uh commonwealth ex uh games which are can which were conducted in uh Delhi in 2009-2010. So that entire area, which the Common Health Village, which was cleaned, and cleaning meant removing the street dogs and the homeless people from that particular area and moving them to a center where they think they'll be safe. So these areas was were to be made were to be cleaned and safety issues were brought out, and these were done under the these under the control programs. So, how this program has moved from a uh a lens which is from a point where they were uh talking about controlling the population, controlling rabies as a health factor. So these these factors are still there, but another level has come across, which is cleaning the city, cleaning the city spaces in accordance with the upper upper middle class and above uh classes in these urban areas, in these cities. So, so these uh so where they are these street dogs are considered as a nuisance in these gated settlements and they are kept outside of these settlements, uh, and who want the to be ridden off of these like dirty dogs. And and this is this uh idea of the aesthetics or the cleanliness or the dirt dirt of the dog that that itself is a differentiation which people uh for instance make between a street dog and a high-end breed dog. And how and so these two different, these are very two different dogs, I would say, different categories of dogs within the dog in the in these cities. Because a breed dog is so if uh some a large part of my work I've been studying again. This is another theme which is cross-cutting across is the informality. So I'm studying informal settlements, I'm looking at how uh across social structures of urbanization, across uh socioeconomic classes, dogs are perceived. Is there is there an effect of these uh um so societal norms on on the interactions with dogs in these areas? So if I'm studying a middle-class gated colony, I'm also studying an informal settlement and dogs in these areas and their interactions in these areas. So then how people in informal settlements they have a very different understanding. They they say that they share, because they share the same space, they also share an identity with these street dogs as opposed to those breed dogs or the high-end or the uh the pet dogs in these uh big houses, which are obviously around these informal settlements, who have a soap to bathe every day, who have air conditioned cars to travel around. So, how the these people in the in uh in these settlements they are uh interacting, they are uh sharing, and then within these settlements also you'll find people who have uh uh who have uh go who uh have pets, uh for instance, they have mixed labradors or they have Indian spits as breeds who are keeping them, and these dogs are very much confined into their houses. They are not let out into the streets or allowed to mingle with the any of the pet dogs because they'll get dirty. Their fur will get dirty. So, this entire concept of aesthetics, this concept of dirt, this concept of cleanliness, and combined with the concept of a good life, which a breed dog has, which a pet dog has living in in a um in an uh in a better in a higher class settlement, is I think which which is also driving this uh entire program now. Because these complaints are on the basis of which the municipal corporations or the authorities are working now. So these complaints from the residents, from the people, from the areas uh where dogs uh and these complaints range from like what the dog is barking at night and it's causing me, causing nuisance, or the dog is sitting on my car. So that is a problem for me. So these are the complaints which are there, and yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I want to try and think about these concepts though, also in terms of how they're you know, they they could potentially be useful for a variety of scholars and researchers. And I think you've touched on something here that's really important with aesthetics, right? So there are important concepts that came up throughout the season, I think, that do cut across, like informality and um biopolitics, certainly. But what you've spoken about here uh with management, kind of with the entanglements of different populations, the significance of aesthetics as a way of organizing um animal populations. And I think this is significant, right? So I come from a historical background where cows historically have been removed from North American cities and sort of pigs and a variety of other animals due to kind of these aesthetics, these ideas of who is dirty and who is clean. And this was obviously born of some of these entanglements with different human populations that were defined as being problematic or not. Absolutely. And this then for me kind of brings up a different uh potential theme that's cutting across all of these, and that's the idea of taxonomy, right? How how um how we are categorized as being clean or dirty or being in a wealthy neighborhood or a not wealthier neighborhood, and often it's not as uh clear-cut as a binary, right? Or clean or dirty. You you kind of have these um there are multiple kinds of uh markers to differentiate animals, and it's not it's often not based on species, right? Like you've shown here with dogs, species is is one thing, and I think dogs get a lot of I think people can more readily accept that dogs are kind of divided in these ways, but how are other animals also divided in these ways, right? Like uh Yamini Narayanan, for example, spoke about cows a fair bit, uh, and and I think she highlighted, particularly in the Indian context, how how different cows and different urban settlements have um are subject to these kind of taxonomies that are shaped by politics, that are shaped by religion. Yeah, um, so for me, I think taxonomy is another one of these really important themes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I think if I can add a bit with respect to the taxonomy, this kind of categorization, this you know, necessary categorization of who the animal is, what is the animal doing in the city? If this is refracted through the lens of dirtiness or sanitation, you know, it's not only the the particular animal, but it's also the practices around the animals, right? What are what what what what what all human practices um around the animal are considered acceptable and so you know they're okay. And what are the kinds of practices that are um unacceptable and and hence are dirty? So for example, um India has a large, large informal meat economy, and uh you you have specific people milking the cattle, you know, and and uh there is clearly there's clearly clearly a law that uh bans uh any kind of um uh cow slaughter, except for in two or three states, and I think uh Yamani already spoke about that. But then again, the people who are uh doing the labor in the meat industry, they are themselves kind of kept outside these ideas of what a nice should you uh city or what what a good city should look like. And so so initially the there was a slaughterhouse in Delhi uh that was in the middle of the city, and uh subsequently that was kind of moved to the periphery, and with the periphery went all the Muslim uh basically community that was involved in butchering, and they were translocated to outside the city, and what developed outside uh these slaughterhouses were garbage dumps, and so you subsequently now have uh a clean city because the meat economy went away, it is now at the periphery, and with the going out of this practices around meat, which were considered dirty in so many ways, you have blood, you have so on and so forth, you know, and all of this. And then you also have the garbage dump coming around because it those were the preferred areas where nobody from these elite you know neighborhoods would ever visit.
SPEAKER_03:So I think the garbage dump is actually a place that uh animal study scholars need to uh it's it's an important place, right? So streets come up, and I think here we start to talk a bit about geography. Like streets are definitely important, homes are definitely important, but the garbage dump is, I think, and it came up uh when I was speaking to Marcus about multi-species commons, the garbage dump as a place to, you know, how he used multi-species commons as a methodology to kind of uh unpack the variety of stories. I think, you know, one, how does a particular space become a garbage dump? Like who was displaced in order to create a garbage dump? Um, but also which populations do you find there? Why do you find them there? Um, and what activities? This ties back to what you were saying about the activities and how different animal populations and human populations work side by side to work through some of these places. And of course, this is also tied to I think what Catherine Oliver was talking about with urban metabolism, right? This is the waste of the city, it's the outputs of the city that no one wants to see. So I think Shabangi, you really like hit a nail on the head there speaking a bit about aesthetics and sanitization because it's this idea of like the ordered city. We don't want to see the dirt, we don't want to see the mess. And um, and I think the the garbage dump, like I've often said, everyone who's doing these like climate change conferences, and you should be having that climate change conference and seminar right next to the garbage dump. That's where you should be having it. You should have your windows open, you should be smelling the garbage, you should be feeling the heat, there should be no bottled water, because then you're really, I think, at the site of things that no one wants to talk about.
SPEAKER_02:And it's not only the larger garbage dumps which which are important to look about and study these, but but the smaller uh like the collection of garbage which is there every day around if you're working in an informal settlement or even in these middle class settlements in very early morning. If I'm going to follow the dogs, I see like outside every house there's a pile of garbage, and that is that in itself is very important when I'm looking at a dog because that is a rich source of food for the dog for the entire day in that area, unless there's someone who's coming to feed the dog. There are places where dogs don't are not fed the entire day, so that garbage dump, and then the rat pickers who come in the early hours when no one can see them, also. So that's their how when they are picking up those garbage and how they are interacting with the dogs, what kind of relationship these uh these people who are anyways uh who are uh who are uh on the mar who are on the margins of the human society are interacting with street dogs who are on the margins of the dog society. So that's an interesting uh I feel like uh comparison. Like if you're looking at the larger garbage dumps and these smaller dumps in these colonies, wherever you go around the city, especially in Indian cities, you'll find them a lot in in piles around.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So that's also very important to look at.
SPEAKER_03:And and even what you were saying about when, uh, you know, there there says something both about the dog populations as well as those uh folks who are uh are using trash to sustain themselves as well. You know, the fact that they're choosing specific times of day also speaks to uh the extent to which they want to be seen or unseen, right? They they know both populations know that there are repercussions. I um I'm from Johannesburg, and uh, and I would know on the days when you take out just your garbage can, there are people who rely on you know materials from within those cans, and they can sometimes face really severe repercussions from from people if they're found if they're found digging through trash. So this also says something about I think the informality and the extent to which different activities are recognized as being legitimate uh versus not. And I think that's really really significant and important when thinking through when thinking through this. Yeah, and thank you for bringing because it's easy to kind of think about that massive dumpster, like you imagine one city and one big dump site with all of our trash in it, but actually it's a lot more diffuse than that. I always think of Wally. Did you ever see the movie Wally?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes, yes. It's all happening in uh, you know. Right?
SPEAKER_03:Like Wally, Wally just knew Wally, Wally knew what was going on. That maybe anyway. Um when in doubt for philosophy, just turn to like pixel, pixel forms, and you'll be right. Okay, uh maybe now we can uh just switch gears. Oh, before we close here, so I've been trying to jot down some of the intercutting themes, management, entanglement, power and wealth, aesthetics and sanitization, taxonomy categorization, um, and kind of this tension between garbage and resource. These are these are some like cross-cutting themes that came up in in almost all of the uh the interviews. And and certainly it's so weird, but I feel like I need to say it. Something that's also cross-cutting here. Uh, you mentioned power dynamics. This is also intercut with a whole bunch of violence, right? Like in in almost all of these interviews, we came across certain uh violences being done that are both seen and unseen. And I think uh sometimes it's so prevalent in the work we do that we forget to actually just say it out loud. And we spoke about a gap being uh, you know, a conversation on methods and how we do this type of work. Before we turn to talking about our quotes, uh are there any other gaps that you felt you would have liked to have seen more of in this kind of conversation about uh the urban?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think for me, methods was. Uh the biggest thing because that's something I've been grappling with a lot in these three years. So I felt even after listening to all of it because it was there, it was it it in all of these episodes, there there were different kinds of methods which were being talked about, but it didn't just come out uh in the open and discuss. Uh and so I think that's the one for me.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I I do I I think maybe some more actual like urban theory could have uh possibly been pulled through. I mean, everyone here did, and I think I hear you know, Krithika and Yamini were were game changers in terms of actually unpacking like Yamini's episode, I think, for just talking through urban theory. She was just a wealth. I feel like every sentence was something I needed to write down. But even some of what you two have been speaking about here with regards to comparing cities, like I know um this is a this is a a growing field in urbanism, right? In an urban scholarship that's not talking about animals. You've got uh Jennifer Roberts, Jennifer Robinson talking about like Robinson, yeah, um, kind of talking about the power of thinking through elsewhere, that it's important to uh and I think again this came up in in kind of dogs came up in most of these interviews, and you start to see that thinking through elsewhere starts to show you that some of these relationships that we take for granted aren't uh they're not necessarily taken for granted. They didn't have to happen that way. So I would have maybe liked a bit more uh urban urban theory and maybe a bit more urban economy uh stuff.
SPEAKER_02:I think that I think I think what you're talking about uh through the comparative cities lens, I felt that uh that came across, I mean, subtly through the global south and global north comparison, where initial interviews uh the cities were mostly uh talking about how in the west the the uh the urban animals are seen, and then with Kritika Srimas and then the Amanira Ryan's work, um the Indian cities came up with a different perspective, with a different kind of everyday living. I feel that that that comparison lens was there, but yeah, I as you're saying this could definitely have been talked more about if urban theory was brought in all. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, great. Um, yeah, so if you have any other ideas, let me know. Uh but maybe now we can switch to uh switch to talking a bit about your quotes. So I don't know who I'd like to go first, but uh normally you guys have listened, so you know how it goes. Uh you read your you read your quotes and then we will we'll just have a little bit of a chat about some of the ideas that crop up there. Uh so whoever wants to go first, you can take it away.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so I have sorry, I have two quotes slightly long. Um it's okay.
SPEAKER_03:This is what everyone does.
SPEAKER_02:I have one from a book, and the other one is from is a field, uh, is from my field diary, an interaction with my um respondents. So I found it interesting and wanted to share. So the quote from this is a book is the inside of a dog by Alexandra Horowitz. And the quote and uh the quote is the dog's gaze is an examination, a regard, a gaze as at another animate creature. He sees us, which might imply that he thinks about us, and we like to be considered. Naturally, we wonder in that moment of shared gaze is the dog thinking about us the way we are thinking about the dog? What does he know about us? Dogs are anthropologists amongst us. They are students of behavior, observing us in the way that the science of anthropology teaches its practitioners to look at humans. Dogs don't stop looking at the grimpy walk, at a rush of leaves tumbling down the sidewalks at our faces. The urban dog may be bereft of natural sights, but he is rich in the odd. The drunken man swerving through the crowd, the shouting sidewalk creature, the lame and destitute, all get long stares from the f uh from dogs who pass them. What makes dogs good anthropologists is that is that they are so attuned to humans. They notice what is typical and what is different. And just as crucially, they don't become inured to us as we do, or nor do they grow up to be us. So that's the book quote. And the second quote is for one of my uh daily interactions from my field notes. So uh it goes as Mrs. Sharma walks down the same street in Delhi every morning to check on the construction of her house. She has another house nearby where she lives with her son and his family. She had moved there after her husband passed away, but now that she has retired from her government job, she intended to live in the house that her late husband and she had bought together. Clad in her crisp cotton salvar kamis, which is traditional Indian Punjabi women's attire, her hair nicely tied back in a bun, she passes me every morning with a smile. I presume this smile is an encouragement towards my work here. She had stopped me in between my following of Lali, a young white female dog with black patches. On the second day of my observations to inquire, and I quote her, Why are you interested in these dogs? Are you from the government and are going to take them away? On getting to know about my research, she patted on me on my back with her encouraging words. Nobody tries to study them. Everyone here wants them taken away. She explained to me that Lali was very dear to her and she comes every day early morning to feed her bread and milk. Happily, Lali would snuggle her nose to her feet, wagging her tail left to right. It helps her twofold, Mrs. Sharma explained to me one day while feeding Lali. She can keep a check on the notorious construction workers in their progress on her house and she gets to meet Lali. Later in the week, Mrs. Sharma informed me that Lali had given birth in her house. Excitedly, she wanted to show me the puppies but was apprehensive of disturbing them as they were already subjected to the unsettling sounds of construction. But now she was seriously worried about them. One of the puppies had passed away and the others were also in a bad shape. She was considering taking them to the hospital. She informed me that her neighbors were also not happy about the increasing dog population and had had their eyes on the puppies. She could shift them somewhere else. This morning I saw Mrs. Sharma anxiously walking, almost half running to her house and looking for something. She was followed by her also worried son. He was the eldest she had and who shared her interest in the care and love for other animals. They were both looking for something or someone. On getting near, I could hear her calling out to Lali frantically. She approached me to inquire if I had seen her anywhere. One of Lali's puppies, apparently, had been run over last night by a passing by vehicle. In 10 days, Lali had lost all her puppies. When Lali wouldn't come to her, Mrs. Sharma said to me, and this is her quote, look how today she is not coming to me. She's sad today. She blames me for not taking care of them. She doesn't talk to me anymore.
SPEAKER_03:That's a terribly sad story.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And very, very profound.
SPEAKER_03:I didn't see it going that way.
SPEAKER_02:And that's that's sort of, I mean, uh the mortality rate of uh puppies in India and in these cities is extremely high. Extremely high. And most of them, like, they give in to the extreme weather conditions and um improper care, lack of health infrastructures, but most of them, I mean, this is from personal communications from the fields, uh, field studies, that most of them die because they're overrun by vehicles intentionally or unintentionally. And I I felt I wanted to share this uh field uh entry because like it very it it brought out it captured all the ideas and all the aspects of this relationship which I wanted to look at. There's how she's scared, how she's judging me being there with my diary, with my phone, because she thinks that I'm someone from the government and I'm thinking of taking away the dogs. So this shows that that her concern for the dogs, and also she must have come across these incidences, these experiences previously with with people coming there from the government to take away dogs or to look after look at the dogs, whoever her interaction which made her judge my my presence in the in that area as such. And then also I really like how I mean it's it's sad, it's definitely sad. And when I actually uh went beyond that, I could see what her relationship with the dog was. Because she was saying she was uh looking at herself from the dog's point of view. She was saying that because she was not able to look after the puppies of Lali, Lali is not responding to her calls that day. Lali is not coming to her.
SPEAKER_03:I think what's fascinating there is also because you juxtaposed that with the one from Alexander Horowitz, right? Um the idea of observing or watching each other. And I think, like you say, what she's doing there is also speaking to how Lali was paying attention to her and how she was paying attention to Lali. So there was there was active attention happening between them. And um, the first quote I think spoke to dogs do watch. They do watch all the time. Like sometimes I think people who have dogs in their homes are all of a sudden surprised. They're like, I didn't teach her that. And she's doing that because they were watching you, they figured out what you enjoy, what you don't, what you like, what you do. Um, but then at the same time, I think uh we perhaps you you speak about the gaze. Some humans pay particular attention to some animals. Um, but the extent to which that we offer kind of that generous gaze of just observing to see what is it you need right now, um, or just observing, uh, just watching. I don't I don't know if uh we are as generous, or not not all of us, um, and not often enough, I think, um are as generous to just watching them in awe and in wonder. Uh and that's also something that came up, I think, throughout the season is just look at the animals, pay attention to how amazing they are, marvel at their life. This was a clearly a really difficult week for Lali, right? Like this um yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. Animal, do you have any any thoughts before you share your your quote?
SPEAKER_01:No, I I mean it was this was just too poignant, and I mean I was clearly taken by surprise. And absolutely the the kind of juxtaposition of um the quote by Horovitz and then Shubhangi kind of, you know, it it it of course kind of tells us that yes, the animals are kind of always um observing us, but it also tells us uh methodologically, how do we kind of how can we kind of achieve some of those, you know, exactly at least address some of those questions, you know, by talking to the people and and uh and it doesn't have to absolutely be um the animal's perspective itself because I think in and I mean I think all of us would agree that we'll never be able to capture you know the exact worldview of the animal, the individual very difficult, yeah. Right, but but but there are ways to get around it, there are ways to get around it, there are ways in which you know people would say how you would triangulate, you know. People would people would use the term to kind of use your own understanding and knowledge or and then of the other people, and then also see that Lali is Saturday, no, you know, Lali isn't emerging out, and so these are kind of indicators which tell us this story about uh that individual dog, it's not the story of the people, it's the story of the dog.
SPEAKER_02:But there are people who will tell us leading us to, exactly.
SPEAKER_03:I think that is something that yeah, and I think on top of that is also I can't capture anyone's perspective. Sometimes I think we we put a lot of weight on kind of the verbal, um, and dogs communicate and and animals communicate a lot through what they do, and like you say, who they're with and who they entrust. Um and and also I think to some extent trusting our own observations, which need to be held in tension, right? Uh, I think this has come up in previous interviews. The first people to say that they love their animals are also the farmers who are are using animals, right? So there is um there is attention with observing, uh, with how much we can know. But there is also, I wouldn't completely throw out those observations either. Um, you know, who who is watching your ability to watch Lali. Uh yeah, I think I think there are many ways in which we can know potentially what they're going through. And I think empathy is a really powerful, uh, powerful tool. You know, how would you feel if you had six kids and they all died in one week? That's that's uh without disavowing also what our own cultural attachments are to children versus what Nali's mind.
SPEAKER_01:And I think it and I think it kind of also brings the question of the agency of the animal itself, you know, um of maneuvering the city, of uh being able to experience certain kinds of things. I mean, they might not be exactly how the animal might have kind of figured, but um there are ways to just talk about the and and I I think because we're not talking about the gaze, um one example from my field work comes to my head where I I had been observing this one individual adult female monkey at one of my field sites, and um it it had been three days, and they were long, long observations, so I'm pretty sure that individual is very, very aware of my presence. And um and I constantly kept thinking to myself that you know it isn't a large troupe, it's just this female and this another adult male, and the adult female is sitting around, and uh and I was wondering whether this individual observes me or not, like because you know it's just the two of us and some other kind of passers by, it's nobody else there. It so happened that I uh for a moment I I was I was writing notes, I had a notebook and a pen, and I just kept the pen uh aside for just a second. The female quickly came to the pen, inspected the pen, kind of started chewing on it, then it slightly just looked at me and just threw it in my direction. And I suppose and I thought maybe it's not that exactly, it was just trying to throw it away. But then no, she she picked it up again and then threw it at my face. My god. So the so the idea is so at least in my understanding is that the that individual was observing me. It was observing not only me, it was observing the articles that I was holding. It associated that pen with me.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I saw I saw a video, uh, I think it was yesterday or two days ago, of a vervet monkey in in South Africa who now South Africans aren't big mask wearers, right? Um, we don't have a history of wearing masks, so it's a relatively new um phenomenon because of COVID-19 that everyone's wearing masks. And all of a sudden, someone had dropped their mask and a vervet monkey picked the mask up and didn't just like wrangle it about or do anything. Um, he proceeded to put it over his face.
SPEAKER_04:I think it's all that, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And that's got no bearing, no, that's purely observation. That's seeing that device on a human face and saying, wait, this does something. And the the monkey was trying to figure out what the mask does, and that's observation 101. That is observation, um, which is just wild.
SPEAKER_02:A lot of learning behavior in uh monkeys and primates is through imitation. Like uh, for instance, if you look at uh the entire uh discussion around the trading behavior in Bali and Indonesia, which has been written about in in uh primates and um uh bifjuntis, and it's it's also there and it's also being written about in in in India. There's it's it happens in uh North Indian temples also, where so this this trading behavior is where uh a monkey would come and take something valuable, say as say your glasses, your phones, or uh an eatable, or a piece of clothing, like a shawl from you, and then it would go and sit uh uh perch uh sit on a like a lamppost or a uh roof, whatever, which is nearby, but also approachable. And then when you give that uh give that animal uh a pouch of food uh which he recognizes, like these are sold around in these areas and say brown envelopes or a sugar sugar pellets, whichever is sold around, when you throw that, that and then the monkey would lose that object and it will come down to you, and then the monkey would catch that food. So this kind of trading behavior which has been studied. So these behaviors are very much learned through imitation across generations. So learning about your environment uh is is a very big part of uh like growing up in these uh societies, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I think recognizing that is to also desensor ourselves, right? Like we think that we're these great observers and knowers of things. Um, we just have a different way of storing our knowledge, of of passing down our knowledge, but um yeah, it's it's we're not the only ones watching, I feel like we've been speaking. I do this at like the also the I think I just enjoy these conversations and like I'm always like, oh my god, the time's running out. Okay. Yeah, the quote. Annual, let's go to let's go to your quote.
unknown:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Uh so this is a quote from uh the paper titled The More Than Human City by Adrian Franklin, um it's a 2016 paper, and um he writes this in context of um uh what does it really entail to be living around animals, you know, in this kind of the um essentially the uh idea of entanglement, what does it really mean? And so um they're right. In theorizing this continuity in change, it is essential to understand the consequences of this contiguity and cohabitation with non-human elements of the city. We cannot merely leave it as a representation, we need to ask what followed, what happened, what iterations and entanglements occurred, with what consequences. One answer was that the extensive parks and gardens might have been built as representations of true wilderness for humans or imported classical cityscapes, but that's not how nature itself was going to act on it. This quote kind of uh makes us think about a lot of these questions. One the use of the word nature, you know, are we kind of talking about nature being separate separated from the city itself or from the urban itself? Because uh, for an ecologist, then uh for generally for an ecologist or uh or people who are studying animals in the urban, for them the urban is just another kind of ecological setting, right? It's another kind of natural landscape. And even in my understanding, a monkey who's born in a city is a city monkey. I mean, I mean, there are going to be different kinds of um affordances that it might have with respect to whatever resources it has vis-a-vis the you know um uh the differences that uh rural counterpart might share. But um, you know, kind of this this constant discussion about whether the city is contained in the in this idea of nature or is nature somewhere out there, and you know, is it wild? When we say wild, does it mean nature? You know, uh that is something that this kind of brings about. But it also tells us about that it's not only enough to look at these entanglements. I mean, we can look at them, we can describe them, we can talk about them. But we also need to see why, in the first place, did they start happening? And once they are happening, what is kind of what does it entail for the animal itself? What does it entail for the city? What does it entail for the human cohabitants? And in that sense, it's talking about this kind of cohabitation in sliteral kind of sense that you know, animals and humans living in a you know city uh uh space, kind of contributing to it, building it together, you know. So would the would the would the uh Hanuman Mandir, which is uh which is a Hanuman deity, is a monkey god in India, uh so the and it was one of my field sites in Delhi, it's in central Delhi. So would that still be the same Hanuman Mandir if there wouldn't be all of those 30 monkeys that populated most, you know, on most days, every day, evening, morning, you know, would it still be the same Hanuman Mandir or would it just be uh another temple that nobody kind of knows about? So it is also kind of a the monkeys are the reason that a lot of people visit the place. And and and so not only in terms of association between the monkey god and the monkey itself, but also that's certain areas are just known because of animals. You know, this is where you will find the monkeys. Oh, if you walk down that's that street, there are de uh what's it called, uh dairy farms that side. Oh, you know, if you go towards this side, there are informal settlements where people will be uh rearing chickens and goats and pigs. So you all you have these demarcations within the city. And so would the kind of city be the city without the animals then, you know?
SPEAKER_03:And and I think, I mean, I think a political slant needs to be added onto that though as well, right? Like there are definitely distinctive spaces that become those spaces because of human-animal relations in those spaces, 100%. But a lot of the uh examples you you gave there were also utilitarian examples, right? Where animals are being used actively in these spaces. And I think um, you know, to what extent these inclusions and exclusions happen? Uh what what kind of city do we want in 50 years from now? And and what kind of relationships do we want defining those cities? So for me, it's not just enough to say the presence of the animals is creating the city as we know it, but is that the kind of city we want to know? And I think go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:And then the idea here of the city, like it's been uh in urban studies how the city is thought of as a living space, living entity, and then moving it beyond, thinking of extending it towards like an interactive space where humans and non-humans and inanimate uh objects, every all of them, they are interacting and which is contributing to the everyday activities in these cities.
SPEAKER_03:I think they're I think this is also where the the first episode of the season and the last episode of the season are actually really helpful. So where you know, we're where Marie is speaking about the the claim to the city. So uh, you know, who has a claim to be here and not just to be here, but to be here and having a good life, and uh and how do we make those opportunities available? And you know, Michelle speaking about urban design and how design could make opportunities possible. And I think she was really lovely in not foreclosing what those look like. Yeah, I mean, it was it was just a great episode with with Michelle and her way of thinking through kind of you know, saying, what could we build to create opportunities? And this might create problems in the future, it might do these things, but but instead of designing, you know, a lot of what we've spoken about today is how animals are pushed, how they're problematized, how they're managed, uh, but instead of creating opportunities for where they could be and flourish. And I think uh this speaks to your point, Animal, about like the idea of nature. How do we how do we stop constantly building these ideas that that we are separate from? And it almost seems like a truism to me now. Uh, you know, and I'm sure it's the same for you guys, that now that we've been doing this for a couple of years, we're like, of course the city's more than human, of course the city's a natural space. Um but but yet it's you you speak to folks and it's it's not, right? This idea of the the city being somehow different and special is uh really really important. But I take your point uh about these animals defining a space as well, and they need to be given credit. And I think another example here is um Toronto with raccoons. Yeah, like what would Toronto be without raccoons? Um yeah, people have this kind of ambivalent relationship with them. Right.
SPEAKER_01:No, and also I want to slightly clarify here, see the animals that and and I said different kinds of animals could be found in different pockets of the city. All of them at some point are just let-free, from chickens to goats, not so much to pigs, because there's certain kind of again, you know, the there's a politics, there's a caste kind of caste politics, politics of being dirty, unclean with respect to the pigs. But a lot of these animals are on their own throughout the day. They just they just, you know, they either go back to either feed on uh, you know, eat on uh whatever is provided to them or just go and kind of rest and relax. But with respect to the monkeys, they are just free ranging. They're free ranging in the city of Delhi. They're no nobody's taking care of them, nobody's specifically involved in feeding them. But it's just everyday people who passers by, certain people who have certain kind of religious commitments to monkeys who are who have been feeding them. And so for so when I say that there are certain spaces that are defining uh certain animals that are defining certain spaces in the city, I don't mean just the animal, I mean also the kind of interactions that they have on their own. The animals, the interactions that they create for themselves, the kind of decisions that they might take every day. It's not only because they are being read, you know.
SPEAKER_02:That's not my yeah, and like there are certain spaces which uh I mean this has been talked about, like how there are certain spaces which humans have assigned to specific animals, like the animal spaces, spaces, but it's not that just those spaces uh where the animals in the city are restricted to, they are moving out and beyond of these spaces and they they're making their own beastly places, which which for instance how for their own like based on seasons. I see like how dogs uh uh occupy certain uh different places in the settlements which have been designed for a different purpose by humans, but they have refashioned it or they have occupied it to that extent that the human would just not utilize, for instance, there's a particular cemented stairs which was made, constructed, like three steps of stairs, which was constructed for an ent uh for an uh different entry to the to a house other than the main gate. But then because it was so hot and that cement was uh offered a very cool resting place for the dogs, they started to rest. Uh one of the females, she started to rest on that cemented steps, and they just left it. They left it. They said that we don't want to uh like paint it or whatever, lay a layer of tiles on it or whatever. We just want to leave it because we see that the dog is getting uh is feeling good over there and it's it's giving them giving her some kind of respite from the high heat. So, how they are also making these places which were previously designed for some other purpose, but they have repurposed it and through their uh uh occup uh occupying that space. So it's interesting how they're claiming the space. Yeah, they're claiming that space, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And these and that is part of that like iterative design process that Michelle was talking about. That if if if if designers started to actually pay attention to these other um, you know, these other animals and what they need, and I think it came up with Yamini as well when she was speaking about monkeys in the city, how they use um buildings to move about and how to their own.
SPEAKER_01:And it'd be fascinating, it's fascinating because the the the recess monkeys, which are predominant in the city of Delhi, in all of their free-ranging wild habitats, they are they've been observed to be more terrestrial than more than arboreal. But in the city, it's actually the other, it's becoming the other way around. Because the terrestrial mode of you know movement often offers challenges, crossing a road, you know, hitting a getting hit by a vehicle, so on and so forth. So there are these kinds of hybrid structures that have happened in some of these areas. Say, for example, a lamppost and the wires, some of some of the tree branches have come and intertwined with them. So the so that with the tree becomes like a passing corridor for them. They would often use that. They would use the uh the cemented boundaries um you know around gated colonies, homes, so on and so forth, all of these places to kind of roost at night. Because you know, they're also up about them, they're able to have a gaze on if at all there's going to be a predator. And there are these are these are some some of the more ecological questions that have already been asked about monkeys, but they're doing it differently in the city itself.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and I think this then starts to come to the heart of what is a city, right? What is urbanization? And I think, you know, when we start to realize that humans are maybe not the only ones that are urbanizing, that the infrastructure here is not the only ones that's, you know, calling for concentrations of human populations, but other animals might actively make choices to concentrate here and to build something here, to do something differently here. It was the same with Marcus speaking about the hyenas. Like there's there's something dynamic going on there with how that city has become a city, right? Um, and it involves both violences and becoming wits and you know the romantic things and also the the not so nice things, but all of this kind of melds together to make hurrah the city it is, um, or to make daily the city it is. So uh yeah, those are really, I think, fascinating examples to kind of just think through. And the the work you're doing of actually watching what animals are doing and the choices they're making is fascinating. So thank you so much for giving me so much of your time today. Uh before we say goodbye, I just want to give you both an opportunity to um let folks know if they're interested in your work. Uh I know that you both said you're busy writing up your PhDs now, so you're both uh finishing that up. But if people are interested in your work, how can they get in touch with you?
SPEAKER_02:Uh so I'm uh if any if anyone is interested, they can definitely um drop an email. Uh and uh my email ID is Shuba.shravastava, uh which will be spelled out on the website, I'm sure. 06 at the email.com. Or they can also reach me on Twitter. I'm fairly active there. That's a good better way to reach. So yeah, I can just tweet or drop a private message for them. I'll be very interested to hear from people who are interested in this kind of work.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the same for me. My email ID and my Twitter handle will be mentioned in the description. I uh I'm I'm hoping. And so I think people can just reach out to me. Um, would love to have certain conversations. I think I really like having some of these conversations because it really self-affirms you about some of the things you might be doing. Sometimes you need those conversations because a a PhD can even even though with four of us and we've been doing it somewhat together, even though a lot of our questions just clash because you know, for me, oh, am I looking at a wild animal? Oh, for Shubangi, you should look at stray animals, street animals, domesticated animals. And so, you know, there are certain contentions that we kind of get around, and it can be very isolating, especially in the the pandemic, ongoing pandemic, you know, scenario. So I think reaching out and speaking is always a great um, you know.
SPEAKER_03:No, it's fascinating. I've I've got some friends who I definitely don't agree with on things. We're both animal studies people, but we and I actually find having those conversations um because you realize what you're like, why do I keep getting icky here? Exactly. You know, my friend says something and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, that's not that's not right. Um and that says something maybe about my own like epistemology and how I've I've kind of stitched things together. Um so I know you're both working your PhD. Is there anything other projects you want to tell people about now or anything you want to share before we wrap things up?
SPEAKER_02:No, that's that for now. I'll uh I'm working on my other like publications from my uh own research work and the thesis as of now, and soon maybe I'll write. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. I I hope I hope Katherine mentioned this um somewhere. I don't know if I caught it, but uh so Katherine is leading uh an editorial group for the geo uh journal uh Geography and Environment, and um uh so we're a part of that team. We've kind of written the uh introduction. Introduction for the call of papers, yeah. Call for papers. So it's it's going to be and and the brilliant thing is it's it it it actually covers the three themes that um have been most yeah and less and less spoken about. One is that was that all part of the plan.
SPEAKER_03:No, like I know what three themes to discuss. I see, I see what's happening.
SPEAKER_01:So one is one is the one is the one is on methods, the other one is the right to the city, the third is uh infrastructure. Infrastructure and space. And it's exactly that. Wow, yeah, and I was fascinated, that is what I told you. I was fascinated to see the themes that have been covered in this edition because it's just wonderful to you know, you know, realize that we're working towards similar things.
SPEAKER_03:And so there's so you better you better include the animal tone in that introduction and say, hey, if you guys are reading this, uh definitely go and listen to the animal tone season three. Absolutely just a just a soft, soft plug. No, um that's really, really exciting. Please make sure that you uh once that call, I know like Catherine is a Catherine Oliver is a powerhouse. She she seems to move at a million miles an hour. Um and anything she touches seems to turn to gold. So uh and your whole group, the whole group, the the work you guys are doing um is really amazing. I think your group is at the forefront of kind of these questions about animals in the urban. So when that call comes out, please uh send it my way too, and I'll share it. Absolutely via the networks. Um, but I really look forward to seeing more of your work and um and connecting with you more in the future. It's been this is officially the longest interview I've ever done. Um, and it's just I think it's a testament to how uh how just how many great ideas and things came up in this episode. Uh so thank you, thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_02:It was lovely, it was really great talking to you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely brilliant. No, all thanks to you for having us here. You know, thank you so much, and thank you so much for doing this.
SPEAKER_02:You know, this is an amazing way to reach out. You're doing a PhD and managing an entire podcast.
SPEAKER_03:It's I can only imagine all the my self-esteem is skyrocketing. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:No, but it's brilliant, like the all the themes across the seasons and uh the episodes and the way you like each episode has a different person who's talking about different things, but is still connected to the previous and the next one. Brilliant management. Amazing.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. For this final animal highlight, I thought that we should maybe focus on an animal that's been rather implicit throughout the season, and that is humans. Humans are the most widespread primates in the world. They, we, are social animals who are very adept at using tools. Homo sapiens emerged about 300,000 years ago and then split into different groups with migration or through migration. When humans started to domesticate was about 15,000 to 10,000 years ago. This period of domestication is often considered to be one of the big moments in human history and fundamentally changed the ways in which many humans structure their societies and their ways of living. Today, most of the 7.9 billion humans on Earth reside in permanent settlements, and over half of these people are in cities. Humans are increasingly an urban dwelling species aggregating into specific areas. And this aggregation has, in our most recent history, also led to a division in labor and kind of specialized tasks becoming increasingly more and more specialized. And when I started to look up, you know, just searching interesting facts about humans, uh, I was rather struck by how differently these articles presented to articles that I was looking at about other animals. So if I looked up, for example, interesting facts about raccoons or squirrels, the articles almost immediately went to the biological or to the body. But what it did with humans was the same thing, but there was a differentiation between the species and the bodies. So all of these articles kind of said interesting facts about human bodies, whereas the articles about other animals just said interesting facts about raccoons or interesting facts about squirrels or interesting facts about leopards. And I don't really know how to articulate what that difference is, but for me, it's maybe pointing a bit to how we kind of view human bodies and human minds as separate, whereas animals are kind of amalgamated into one. I digress. There were some pretty interesting and fun facts about human bodies, uh, and I'm going to share some of them with you here. So while it's true that humans are not the biggest or the strongest animal, and I would probably argue not the smartest either, humans are the best at long distance running in terms of endurance, which is really fascinating. Uh, I would have thought that wolves would have been up there and far, far um, you know, exceeded what humans are capable of. But in fact, humans, because of our ability to sweat, have our ability to sweat and our upright posture are fantastic long-distance runners. Uh, goosebumps are the result of adrenaline. And it's believed that historically we might have used this adrenaline to make our hair stand up to appear a bit more uh fearsome to predators and those that are trying to get us. Our ears, and this made me a little bit sad, our ears and our noses will continue to get bigger and bigger the older we get. And this isn't because our ears and noses are actually growing, but because uh the cartilage in our ears and noses kind of starts to, not the cartilage, sorry, the um the collagen in the cartilage starts to break down. And as that breaks down, gravity takes hold and our noses and our ears start to droop a little bit more, uh, giving the appearance of being bigger. Uh, humans are not the only species with fingerprints. Uh, koalas, chimps, gorillas also have them, but it is one of the features that makes us fairly unique within the animal kingdom. And because I'm hungry, this is uh interesting to note as well. Right-handed people tend to chew more of their food on the right side of their mouth, and left-handed people tend to do so on the left sides of their mouths. Uh, and that's it. Uh, humans are pretty interesting and amazing animals for uh we have many, many faults and we have many things we need to fix and do. But when looking at us as animals, I think we are rather remarkable, but not the most remarkable and not necessarily the most exceptional. But like I've pointed out with our like I've pointed out with all the other animals that we've looked at in the highlights so far, the next time you see a human, maybe look at the human and think about them as humans that have their own individual histories that have been shaped by thousands and thousands and thousands of years of history of changes, including things like domestication, uh, that have altered how we relate to one another as well as how we relate to other animals. Thank you once again to Shabanji and Annol for being fantastic guests in this final episode of season three. A huge thank you to Animals in Philosophy, Politics, Law and Ethics Apple for sponsoring this podcast, to Jeremy John for the logo and Gordon Clark for the bad music. I also want to say thank you here to everyone else who's helped me make this podcast what it is, to my husband Oliver Hurtenfelder, who endures I cannot even tell you how many conversations for me and bits and pieces about how I want to develop this podcast and ideas of things I want to do, uh, to Paula Samonik, who gave me the microphone that makes things possible here, to uh Frederick and Christiane who helped me update the Apple website. Uh, to everyone who's shared and liked and left a review. I cannot tell you how much that helps. And also a thank you to the folks that have sent me emails with ideas and thoughts and suggestions, uh, people that want to collaborate and create different kinds of blog entries or interviews or all sorts of things. Uh thank you to all of you. I think you know who you are, and uh the end of season three for me marks a really big moment. Um, so thank you, thank you, thank you. I very much look forward to joining you in the next season, which is gonna be all about animals and sound, which is something I'm really new to and kind of just figuring it out. Uh, if you have any ideas for concepts that would be really important in a season on animals and sound, I'm currently developing that list right now. So, again, reach out, get in touch, let me know what you think. And uh, this season is gonna actually have some co-sponsorship happening from the SAF lab and the Sonic Art Studio. They're also gonna be sponsoring this season. So I'm super excited. Things are developing. Watch this space, more is coming soon. This is the Animal Turn with me, Claudia Hotenfelder.
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