The Animal Turn

S8E6: Podcasting and Education with María Carreras and Kate Acton

• Claudia Hirtenfelder • Season 8 • Episode 6

Share episode

We celebrate 100 episodes by asking how podcasting can teach, build community, and improve animal welfare across languages, disciplines, and daily routines. Guests Maria Carreras and Kate Acton share concrete changes, strategic insights, and challenges that reshape how we listen to animals and to each other.

Date Recorded: 11 April 2025

Featured: 

Nature Disturbed
Mother Nature is one weird lady

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

A.P.P.L.E
Animals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.

iROAR Network
iROAR brings together podcasts that aim is to make the world a better place for animals.

Pollination Project
The Pollination Project empowers volunteers across by providing the funding they need.

Georgia Institute of Technology
School of Modern Language, Ivan Allen College of Liberal Arts, School of Literature, Media, & Commun

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of the iROAR Network. Learn more on our website.

Siobhan O'Sullivan:

This is another IRO podcast.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Me as a listener to your podcast, to the other podcasts that that I have mentioned, other podcasts such as Minding Animals. I don't know if you have listened to this one, but this is an uh such an important element. Uh while while I'm listening to you, I feel that I belong to this community, and that's such a beautiful thing. Hello everyone, welcome back to the Animal Turn. Uh, after our mid-season break, we're right back into finishing season eight, which is focused on animals and media. And today's episode is really, really, really special. It is the hundredth episode of the Animal Turn podcast, which is just awesome. Uh, I started this podcast early in 2020 while I was undertaking my PhD, and I was trying to figure out the world of animal studies and just the numerous divergent and interesting and overlapping concepts that you come across. Uh, you know, as you know, animal studies is kind of inherently into and transdisciplinary. So you're kind of bombarded with concepts and ideas. And I started this podcast uh in my attempt to try and understand what was going on. And now, you know, five years later, the podcast has eight seasons, over 54,000 downloads. And uh it's been an absolute joy just speaking to people and learning from people. Uh, and if you're a regular listener to the show, you know that one of my core goals for the Animal Turn, that it is something that is interesting to listen to. Uh, I'm also really hoping that it becomes um a pedagogical tool, something that makes itself known in academies and universities around the world, and that is mobilized in courses designed to understand a whole host of things, whether that's media or sound or law, that these conversations I have with experts make their way into educational spaces and expose more and more people to why we should be thinking about animals and why this is a significant and important avenue for scholarship. So it gives me great pleasure for today's episode to focus on podcasting. And you'll note that this episode also has a specific kind of slant towards thinking about podcasting and education, because all three of us have in some way used the podcast as a means of knowledge dissemination, as a tool of education and as a means of kind of talking through and unpacking really complex ideas. So let me tell you about the guests who are joining me today. Uh first up, there's Maria Carreras, who is a lecturer in strategic communication at Helmstadt University in Sweden. She also teaches a course Critical Animal Studies, Animals in Society, Culture and the Media at Lund University. Maria holds a PhD in communication from UPF Barcelona, where her dissertation focused on the communication strategies employed by dairy industry lobbies. Alongside her academic career, Maria has a professional background in public relations, journalism, translation, and graphic design. So she's a really wonderful, awesome person who I've met and uh who also helps us to understand how important it is to realize that these conversations are happening in numerous languages. Um, you know, I'm learning German and I'm realizing how difficult it is to speak across language barriers. Uh and more and more I think I'm just appreciating how much folks who are communicating in English is their second, third, sometimes even fourth language, and having these really intense debates, how uh valuable that is, uh how interesting that is, and how um, you know, how much work goes into doing that. Uh, but also realizing how different languages open up different ways of understanding and thinking about issues and problems and challenges. And in this episode, Maria also gives us a whole bunch of suggestions to French and Spanish-speaking podcasts that also talk about animals and animal studies. Uh uh Kate Acton is the other guest on today's episode, and she's an assistant professor in veterinary education and co-host of the Conversations and Equine Science podcast. This podcast explores evidence-based horse care through accessible research-driven discussion. Kate is the lead author of the 2024 study published in Equine Veterinary Education, which explores how science-based podcasts can influence equine management decisions and support for animal welfare. Kate is particularly interested in how podcasting fosters parasocial relationships that can support behavioral change and knowledge translation in veterinary and animal care contexts. So Kate has a much more applied focus on the use of podcasting. Um, we spent quite a bit of time kind of noting how Maria and I delve and deal with the uh the realm of ideas and how important these ideas are to understanding animals' material situations. Whereas Kate has a very applied focus of educating on what welfare mechanisms and practices should be put in place, particularly as they're related to horse care. And I think the the juxtaposition of the three of us in having this conversation about podcasting and education shows uh one, just how diverse you can engage in educational practices and activities, and two, how much more work there is to be done. You know, you can be very, very broad and generalist, uh, or you can be very niche and specific as Kate is with her focus on horses. Uh so there's a lot to be done out there in terms of generating podcast content, having these conversations uh and and sharing knowledge, right? Uh so it was a wonderful conversation. Uh, perhaps we didn't go as, I think, theoretically in depth and dense in terms of the power of podcasting and the scholarship that's been done on podcasting as a tool itself. Um, but we did reflect a great deal on our experiences as podcast hosts, and I hope that it's interesting to and from you. Hello, Maria and Kate. Welcome to the Animal Tone podcast. Uh, you're joining me on a very, very special episode. Uh, if I manage to play my cards right, this will be the hundredth episode of the Animal Turn. And I think it's um really cool that the hundredth episode of the Animal Turn Podcast is gonna be talking about podcasting. So it's really great to have you both on the show. Uh we're both experts in kind of media and animals, but in different ways. So I think we're gonna have a good conversation today. So thank you, thank you so much for joining me. Why don't we get straight into it and learn a little bit about the both of you uh before we start diving into the relationship between podcasting and animals? Maria, why don't we start with you? Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you became interested in animals? Okay, so hi, uh Claudia and Kate and everyone that is listening right now. Thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure and also uh such an honor to be in the number 100. Yeah, so I became interested in animal liberation um more than uh what now? More than 20 years now. Uh, and actually, what sparked my transformation into becoming a vegan uh was actually a podcast. Um, or not a podcast, but a radio program. Uh a radio program about animal liberation that one of my best friends was doing um there. She she hosted this program at a local free autonomous radio station in my hometown, there in the north of Spain. And when this happened, when you started uh thinking about animal liberation, was this the same time when you started to get interested in animals and media? Because I know that your area of research is looking at kind of critical media studies. How did those two intersect?

María R. Carreras :

Oh, yeah. Okay. So for that, um more than 10 years had to pass. Um so years later, I became a vegan through my activism while living in Madrid, Spain. Um, I connected with some people who had started a vegan bookhouse, a vegan uh publishing house. And if I recall correctly, I think they knew that I was working as a freelance translator at the time. And they asked me if I could help them with some corrections for a book. I believe it was a collection of essays by Jason Rival. Um, so I helped them with these corrections, with these editions, and over time I also became part of that collective. And as we brainstormed relevant anti-species books uh to translate it into Spanish, this was what we were doing: translate books that we were thinking that were relevant into Spanish. So I was doing some research to see what could be our next book, uh, Asking Around. And of course, I came across Carol J. Adams's book and suggested that we translate it and publish it in Spanish. Um, and during a conversation about the sexual politics of meat, someone mentioned the name of the person who would become later my PhD advisor, Lurial Mirón. And that moment was a really a turning point because then was when I realized, okay, so these anti-species issues are actually being explored in a scholarly context, and then a whole new world opened uh up to me. So I was already interested in researching, in writing. Um because when I did my bachelor's degree uh with the help of my then advisor, I already published my bachelor's thesis. And so I immediately thought, okay, maybe this is an opportunity to do my PhD in in this team. So that was why I came across this, because I had studied first graphic design, but then uh PR and advertising and then communication.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

So people might be listening to your backstory and thinking, why on earth is Maria here when we're talking about podcasting? And that's because you're also the host of a podcast, right? Can you tell us a little bit about your podcast and how that got started?

María R. Carreras :

Okay, yes. Uh thank you for that question. So I have always done radio programs, like uh the classic radio programs that are broadcasted into the FM. Um so ever since I was a teenager, I was participating in community radios for a little while, then in this kind of free autonomous radios. Uh, and I was conducting programs about different things, especially about music. Um so because in Spain there's this movement that I mentioned before, uh Radios Libres, Free Autonomous Radios. And these stations, this is very special for me to be part of this. These stations are typically non-commercial, they operate outside the mainstream media landscape. And actually, their their goal is to provide an alternative voice to traditional media, often with a focus on things such as social justice, um, local issues, political activism. So, anyways, in this kind of radios was where I learned uh how to do everything about radios, so how to prepare an episode, how to operate the controls myself, the mixing, the micros, everything. Um and then in this kind of radios, both in Zaragoza and in Madrid, I was doing radio shows that sometimes were about music, sometimes were about social issues, and I was um incorporating more and more animal liberation uh questions. So then years later, actually, after I think it was after defending my dissertation, um I imagined to do a podcast since I was already living here in Sweden and not in Spain. And here in Sweden, there's no free radio movement, there's no uh that I know community radios movement. So I imagined it as a podcast instead of as a radio program. And yeah, I asked for a scholarship in the Cultural and Animals program, and I received it and I started the podcast.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

The Cultural and Animals Program uh Foundation, they do really, really great work, and I think a lot of fantastic projects have started there from the kind of seed money that they give people to emerge and stuff. And thank you so much, Maria, for letting us know. So, uh Kate, let's turn to you. You've got a bit of a different relationship with podcasting, I think, um, as well as you've written a little bit about podcasting. So you've got your own podcast, you've written about a different podcast, and uh, you're a veterinary nurse, is that correct?

Kate Acton:

Yes. Um hi everyone, and thank you, Claudia, for having me. I feel like I can learn a lot from you guys because I think in a way I kind of fell into podcasting. Um my background in animals is that I just grew up loving animals and wanting to work with them. That was always my goal and my passion. And I got into veterinary nursing and I grew up in Ireland, but I actually went to work in the United Kingdom when I graduated, and they have really excellent standards for how they do different protocols or how they incorporate students into practice. And we have great standards in Ireland too, but really in the UK, they seem to be paving the way for veterines. So initially I went there to work, and that's when I fell in love with teaching students. Um, and in practice, there were a couple of things that kind of stood out to me that slowly led to this realization that it wasn't enough for the research to be done. It's we need to actually get it to the people that are going to use it. And my first experience of this was in a busy veterinary practice where we'd often get a lot of very stressed or aggressive cats coming in. And cats are so easily stressed. Like they, I think they have one of the hardest times coming into the veterinary clinic because they just need to smell the place when they enter the door and their heart rate goes up. And I had read a paper about how we could give a medication to them that has little to no side effects, but would actually reduce this level of stress. And I went to the partners in the practice, and everything we do in veterinary is very evidence-based. And I was there with the evidence, but they were still kind of hesitant whether we should try this or not. And it just seems like it was a bit of a chance that I even came across this research. But once we implemented it, it had a massive impact on our patients. Like we did start with one of the nurses' cats because they wanted to hedge their bets in implementing it. But the cats that came in were so much more relaxed, and it meant their welfare was massively improved. And from there, I kind of thought it almost felt like it was my role that I put this on myself, that I need to read this research to be able to tell these people I work with what we should be doing. And I decided to do a master's in equine science because horses have always been a big love of mine. And that's where I actually met my co-host, Nancy McLean. And when we finished the masters, she had this idea because we had read so many research papers over the three years that we did it part-time. She was saying, you know, it's a shame that these papers aren't getting to the owners of horses that can actually do something with the research. And she had this idea of like, should we start a podcast? And it was this amazing light bulb moment where we thought, we can just read these conversations, like these papers conversationally, and maybe incite some change in people, especially in an industry like the equine industry, which is very much based in um kind of old tales of how to do things still. Like it is moving along with evidence-based medicine, and definitely the competition side of Equine is moving very highly with athletic training regimes and protocols. But it just felt like the everyday horse owner wasn't benefiting from this, and their horses weren't benefiting. So it became this big passion over the last five or so years of Nancy and mine, where we just try and take the papers, wrap our minds around them a lot of the time, and then pass them on to the horse owners.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

So that's the Conversations and Equine Science podcast, right? Yes. And you're you're also the host of uh another podcast. Uh is that the the U. U.C.D. Yeah. Exactly. I was gonna say UBC, and I was like, no, I've got a wrong letter in there somewhere. Yeah. Where you where you do more interviews with others, right?

Kate Acton:

Yeah, so the UCD veterinary nursing podcast, and that again is something that I decided to start after having gone through the podcasting route with Nancy for a bit and learning some of the ropes. And from listening to Maria, I'm like, I'm very novice at the technical size of it. But I wanted to try and raise awareness around what veterinary nurses do. It's still a very underappreciated profession. And and we don't have a huge amount of episodes on that because at the moment I'm also doing my PhD, so it's a little bit of a time crunch. But I wanted to just get veterinurs in the room to have a conversation to say why they chose this profession and where they are now, because students don't realize how many doors are open to them if they do study this degree. You know, you might not be a veterinaire forever, but there are so many different industries that you can still make an impact on animal welfare and still carry out a core aspect of what you learned in veterinars. And that kind of bred these conversations where it's very short, open-ended, just to get people's opinions on why they got into the profession.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Yeah, we've I've had a couple of uh veterinary ethicists on the show where we've spoken about, you know, the ethics and some of the challenges with dealing with animals and animal welfare, and of course, some of the issues that come up with regards to animals being property and how you navigate. Like these are highly political, highly charged and very difficult um areas of conversation. But I know that you mentioned in one of your episodes that we tend to always focus on the vets, and we forget that there's actually a whole team of people behind um veterinary practice and veterinary nurses being being one of them who really facilitate and help uh animals in like post-operative care, for example. Um, so very interesting. And uh yeah, I enjoyed listening to your episodes. Now, Maria, I listened to yours as well, and uh I didn't do very well because yours are in Spanish, right? And this got me thinking a little bit about podcasting as a medium, because uh both of our shows are part of the iRaw network. So if listeners are unfamiliar with the iRaw network, you shouldn't be because it's literally like flagged at the beginning of every episode. But um, the iRaw Network is a series of podcasts that kind of focus on animals in a variety of different ways. And if you look at the list of podcasts there, and I think podcasts in general, there's a lot of English content. But when it comes to animals, I think that there's not as much in the way of um I mean maybe I'm wrong. What does the landscape look like when it comes to Spanish content and talking about animals?

María R. Carreras :

There's plenty of uh materials actually, and the fact that I chose to do my podcast in Spanish is very, very purposefully done. Um yeah, so in Spanish in Spanish-speaking countries, there's a lot of great research and activism being done in the field of critical animal studies, but also related to veganism in general and so on. There's, for example, three specific uh scientific journals in Spanish, um, one that is called Animal Ethics Review from UPFL Barcelona. Um, there's the Revista Latinoamerica de Studios Criticos Animales. So the Latin American uh journal for critical animal studies, there's also um journal in the University of Chile specified in animal law. So, yeah, in Spanish-speaking countries, I was observing that it exists a great deal of high-quality research, and at the same time, there's a great deal of high-quality militant and activist work for the other animals, and this has been going on for decades. The thing is that there is a significant language bias, uh, both in general but specifically in scholarly research, with English being the dominant language. For example, uh a college colleague of mine here in the, we are in the north of the north here, and he once told me, look, Maria, all of the research that you have done in Spanish, everything that you have published in Spanish, including thousands of journalistic pieces, doesn't count here. It's like you you had done zero. So, yeah, there's this significant language bias in scholarly research, with English being the dominant language. And this creates challenges for researchers and for scholars from non-English speaking backgrounds. Um, many prestigious academic journals and conferences operate primarily in English, and publishing or doing things in other languages can sometimes limit the reach the reach or perceived prestige of research. Also, it's um this dominance, I think it can lead to a kind of an exclusion for those who are not fluent in English, for those of us who have accents uh coming from the global south. And it can reinforce inequalities in the academic world, in the world in general. Um, but researchers from English-speaking countries often have an advantage, clear advantage, not only in terms of language fluency and participation and being heard, but also in access of uh to funding, uh networking, career opportunities, and so on. So for me, it was uh very purposeful that I would be doing a podcast that uh that tries to unite us speakers of Spanish uh at both uh sides of the Atlantic Ocean. Um and this has been, yes, really one of the goals of the podcast uh from the beginning. So one goal was to uh um bridge very humbly try to bridge these gaps between scholars and activists, also scholars and activists into a greater, less specialized audience, but also this gap between Spanish-speaking communities in different parts of the world. We are doing interesting things that sometimes get marginalized in the dominant English world.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

That's a really important point. Um, what has the reception been to your respective podcasts? Uh, we'll talk, I think, in a moment, you know, what what is the significance of podcasting for animals? Uh, because in some ways it sounds like we're actually building human communities, right? We're we're finding ways to get veterinary nurses to know one another, or equine owners to know and understand the science, or Spanish speakers and uh liberationists to kind of build community. So it seems like it's in many ways podcasting is an action or an activity of building uh community and groups of people with shared knowledge, right? But I suppose it's not always clear to me to what extent uh how does our work help animals? Um now, Kate, I know that your one paper looked at, you've written about this, trying to understand a little bit about what the impact of podcasting is, especially this Equine podcast that you were talking about for horses and horse owners. What did you find?

Kate Acton:

So in the study that we did, it was specifically with our listeners of the Conversations and Equine Science podcast. And it is preliminary findings because it's specific to our podcast. So we can't generalize that every listener will incite change from a podcast. But we had 74% of listeners report that they implemented at least one change that they thought had a positive effect on their horse's outcomes or welfare from listening to the podcast. And at that point, me and Nancy were like, we feel like our job is done. Like if it doesn't get any, like, I don't know how it could get any better than that. That 74% of the people that listened picked up something that they thought made a difference to their horse. And I think in every industry we're seeing this more, but it's this faster-paced lifestyle where people are just seem to be so busy and burnt at both ends. And podcasts are such a great medium that you know you can listen to them while you are cleaning the yard or mucking out stables. And equally, I listen when I'm on my commute to work and commuting home, and it's just become such a great and easy tool to access that information.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Yeah, I agree. And and you know, with that fast pace, I find sometimes I don't even make time for podcasts because I actually just need silence. I need to walk and not hear anything and not have anything in my ear or happening at that moment. And uh I I've now implemented a strategy that when I run, I listen to podcasts because that's actually I hate running, but somehow this is my way of bribing myself and creating that-You're a reinforced exactly. Um, what kind of uh changes did you see people uh implementing? So, I mean, I think Maria and I operate more in the kind of ideas space where we're trying to think about political ideas um or or conceptual ideas. But I think yours as an animal welfare podcast is perhaps dealing with um, in many ways, pragmatic or practical uh day-to-day steps that you're asking people to do with their horses. Could you give me some examples?

Kate Acton:

Yeah, some of the feedback we've had on the podcast has been in relation to um diet a lot of the time. So just making small changes to diet, but then things like saddle fit, tack fit, these things that people might not have revisited. Like in one of our episodes, we were talking about how your horse ages, you should be rechecking these things and make sure that you're not, you know, causing any pain or suffering when you are riding the horses. And we've talked as well about some interesting research that I'm quite passionate about, which is and bitless bridles, that we're not using bits when we ride horses, but that um can definitely fall into an area where it's a bit harder to convince the masses to do away with with bits, but we can positively reinforce train our horses in ways that they don't have to, you know, use all this tack. And there's a lot of great advocates out there that don't use extreme methods. And and some of the other ones is actually talking about how horses perceive people. Um and this is something we see across with dogs and cats as well, but animals have a propensity to be, I suppose, warmer towards female energy. And we've talked on the podcast about how approaching the horse has that impact or the energy you bring, they pick that up more than you realize when you're entering the stable and taking those moments to not go down there when you're angry or frustrated and to consider the interactions you're having with your horse, spending time with yours that's a little bit more connected than just, you know, getting in, trying to get a job done and getting out and not understanding the benefit of that actual one-on-one time with them and for yourself as well. But we've done some really great episodes where we've got, I suppose one episode we got a lot of feedback on was music, listening to music in stables and what horses perceived per set or preferences are when it comes to music. And the cross-species classical is always one that comes out more on top. It tends to be more calming.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Any specific classical composer that horses are into?

Kate Acton:

They didn't go down to the nitty-gritty of what composers. I don't know if they'd have gotten into something. Yeah, some uh murky waters promoting one over the other. Um, but yeah, it's it's just we've had so many people reach out in one way or another um and say, you know, I didn't know that, and now I'm actually looking at it. And there's a lot of subjects we've touched on too, which I think don't get talked about enough. And one that just comes to mind, like the bitless bridles, is definitely one of the tack that we're using. Like we need to reconsider that in terms of welfare. But also we need to consider our physical stature and weight compared to the horse. And there should be better protocols in place for the amount of loads we're asking horses to carry and the amount of work. That they're being asked to do. And then there's cultural aspects that come in there where in a lot of places, horses are livelihoods for people. And they rely so heavily on the horses being able to get them to markets or to bring produce where they need to go or even harvesting crops. So we've done some episodes as well on um horse and donkey trade, particularly the hor donkey trade in Africa, which has become quite a bit of a problem because people from more isolated communities are having their donkeys stolen and you know slaughtered and sold, and they're relying entirely on these animals. And they would fall under equids. We don't do a massive amount on donkeys, but they definitely come in to it as well when we're looking at the cultural aspects of how important these animals are.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

What I enjoy about podcasting is that it kind of creates opportunities to really get specific and deep with the project and perhaps also to go really broad and general with an idea, right? So, you know, I think it's incredible that you can have a show that just focuses in on horses in particular and horse welfare in particular. And while I'm I'm certainly not an advocate of using horses or riding horses, that isn't my jam, um, so to speak. I think it's really important. Same thing with dog ownership. I'm you know, I think dog ownership is a problem and a challenge, and so is cat ownership. But the fact of the matter is, is they do exist in people's homes and in people's communities. And um, our relationships with them, we do so many things wrong on any given day with our interactions with our pet animals. Um, and there's also so much noise with regards to this. And I'm I'm saying this perhaps from a uh relationship with Linus, that there's there's so many contrary and contradictory and sometimes conflicting information that it can sometimes leave you at a loss on what to do and how to interact with your animal. And then you defer a little bit, I think, to your own knowledge of who that animal is and how you relate to them. Um, have you found that that kind of um, and this is for both of you, Maria and Kate, have you found that this kind of difficulty of of dealing with information is something that you help listeners with?

Kate Acton:

Yeah, I mean, I try and break it down in a way that makes sense to me. So I'm assuming that the average listener thinks similar to me in one way, but um for these topics, I like to really get down to a granular level and think why, you know, why these changes need to be in place. And you touched on something there about, you know, when it comes to ownership of animals, it can be extremely frustrating working in veterinary when it comes down to people and how they interact with their animals and even presenting knowledge to them in a consult room and then telling you they read something on Facebook that's contrary to that, so they're gonna go with what the Facebook group said. And I just always thought it was really interesting that people seem to be more open to accepting this information when it comes in other formats. But shouldn't we be the people then? We should have experts that are the ones using those formats to get in touch with these people. Um and the only other point I just wanted to make from what you said, Claudia, is I think it's such an interesting time when it does come to the ownership and the use of animals and people's, you know, opinions on how that should look, depending on, you know, culture and need and necessity. Um but at the very baseline, our ethos is that owning an animal at the very basic level is an absolute privilege. It's not your right. And you need to enter into that knowing that that's a privilege that you are taking on, that you are going to fully commit to, and you are going to treat them like the closest member of your family. And, you know, a lot of the time that does mean no expense theirs. Having a 12-year-old dog, I definitely know what that feels like at this stage. But that you have to have all these things in place, like you would or you should in having a family or you know, taking on any massive commitment. And I think sometimes it's just a little bit too easy to become an owner, and definitely seeing that with exotic species as well. It's probably a little bit more to a side note, but it is, it's just one of those things for me that I think you should be trying to continually educate yourself to improve as best you can because you can't speak with your animal in the same way that you speak to a human. You need to learn their behavior and you need to learn their cues and you need to uh react appropriately to support that. And I just think this is one way we can get across.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

That's such a valuable point in a season where we're talking about animals and media, because I think media in many ways, popular media and popular communication sells us some ideas about animals, you know, the ways in which we should interact with horses. And you get Black Beauty, and you think, oh, okay, this is the way that I should interact with a horse. And you watch All Dogs Go to Heaven, a movie that still makes me cry to this day. And I'm showing my age.

Kate Acton:

One of my favorites.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

But um you, you know, you you create these imaginies and these ideas about how we should or should not interact with specific animals, and sometimes we're not doing our due diligence and our responsibility. And I think um, I mean, you say you say privilege, I often talk about responsibility that if you're bringing an animal into your home, I we shouldn't own them. But the fact of the matter is, most countries in the world, if you have a pet, they are your property. And I think um you have a responsibility not to them as property, but as beings who are living a full life and you have you literally dictate everything about their lives. Um so I think the more we can do to think about, even if, even if people don't always agree with your opinion, if you are facilitating some sort of reflection or thought about the interaction with the animals, I think that's far better than what many, many, many, many people do, is they just have animals without ever really giving them considered thought. They just kind of exist there as part of their lives. But the animals and what their needs are are often just background noise. And Maria, you deal with a lot more, I think, uh conceptual and political ideas. And uh I think the the impact of Kate's uh podcast is quite clear in terms of you know, here's something you can do, and people implement it and they can see uh changes in their animals' lives. I I imagine uh for you, like for me, it's sometimes a bit more difficult to see the impact of your podcast. Do you feel that way?

María R. Carreras :

Yes, absolutely. I mean, going back to the question of the purpose, for me, the purpose of the um podcast was to break down knowledge that it's quite complex in more digestible uh pieces that uh people that maybe is not used to read scholarly um research could understand and implement in their lives and into their activism, and about the impact that you are asking about now. I think methodologically speaking, it's really challenging to measure the actual impact of our individual podcasts. Um, however, I'm sure that uh they still have a lot of potential. And Kate touched upon something uh when she mentioned about uh people who is uh listening more to what they see on Facebook than what is scientifically proven. And I think podcasts are really niche and um here uh you can see how people is uh deciding to listen, certain people that maybe they look as their peers. I think we tend to listen more about um to listen more to what people that we consider our peers say. I don't know for example, if I think about my students, sometimes they listen more to each other about what they should do uh for an exercise than they listen to us teachers. Um I think this happens in the same way with podcasts. I think they have a lot of potential as a communication tool. And I think that you always get to um impact a specific group that only you maybe can access or someone like you can access. So it depends on how it's done, but um I think each of our different podcasts reaches different audiences. Um that is uh such a fantastic uh thing to have a set specific target audiences.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Yeah, and I mean, while it's much more difficult to perhaps measure, I think, uh the impact of podcasts that deal with ideas, and not to say that Kate yours is not dealing with ideas as well. Um I think just that in some ways you've got some more like measurable, tangible things. But I think uh, and at least on the animal tone, we're often talking about day-to-day interactions or day-to-day thoughts and ideas and and some of our own thoughts and ideas that need to be challenged, um, things we take for granted. So I think it's peer-to-peer is important in in some ways. But I think podcasting, you know, there's a trust element there. You're in someone's ear for 30 minutes to an hour to an hour and a half, and people are coming back again and again. And you're developing rapport and relationship with people who start to, I think, trust your views, don't necessarily always agree with your views, but trust that you've done your due diligence in terms of your thinking. And a lot of responsibility, I think, comes with that. Um, and I don't know, like when I listen to podcasts, there's an authenticity element to it. You know, you get some podcasts that are very um hyper-produced and stuff, and I'm not too sure how much of that person I'm hearing versus the kind of production element, but then you have others where it's a conversation, and I feel like, wow, I'm really getting to know this person and their their views. Um, I know I've had several emails from students at the in the masters and PhD programs just emailing and saying, like, thank you. This has been so helpful because animal studies is ginormous and it's huge and it's intimidating. And for many people entering animal studies, they've never, you know, they've never been in animal studies before. They're coming from sociology or veterinary science and they're trying to think about these political and ethical problems. And hearing people speak plainly about it, I think really helps. Um, it works like you like you did with your equine podcast, Kate and Maria, like we do with our work, it works in tandem with academia and education. And I think it enhances that work that's being done, which is really important. So, do you guys have any other thoughts about the impact or the relationship between animals and podcasting? Maybe things that we're doing well or things that could be improved.

María R. Carreras :

Yeah, for me it's uh all about it depends about how they are used, but also like podcasts are one communication tool. I am a big fan of using every tool uh that that we can reach to in order to transmit messages about animal liberation and about total liberation in general. So I think that's great.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

You've written a lot about strategic communication. So, like, can you tell us what is what is strategic communication? And um, I mean, would you view podcasting as like, is it a medium, strategic communication, or is it a is it a tactic that's used in media?

María R. Carreras :

So strategic communication is the communication that one does uh with a purpose, uh, so to aim to do something, to accomplish something with the communication. So in this sense, of course, our podcasting is totally strategic communication and activist communication.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

And you you used this to think a bit about the dairy industry, didn't you?

María R. Carreras :

Yes, so um my relationship to the dairy industry is that I researched the um strategic communication of the dairy industries, lobbies, and think tanks.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Do you guys have any examples of podcasts that you think listeners should listen to if they're interested in animals? And particularly even in this, uh we haven't really touched on it yet. So if you've got any thoughts about this, the kind of connection between species, race, and animals. Um, it's something that's come up throughout the season. So if you've got any thoughts on that or any kind of suggestions on podcasts that people could listen to in thinking through these ideas, that would be great.

Kate Acton:

Just in relation to the species race and how podcasting ties in with animals, I think what's important for me is to try and have some diversity in who's representing the animals in the podcast. So it's not just about a blanket telling their story, but from what perspective is that coming from? And that's something Nancy and I touch on, and we bring it up quite a bit because Nancy is a very different equine background to me. Um, she grew up, you know, with horses that were used for racing, and she was very involved in the race industry in America. Um, and now she has retired racehorses on a farm, so she's basically giving them the best uh life that they can have now. And I grew up doing very much like pony club centered horse riding, but um very much I wouldn't say I shied away from it because I loved going to be around the horses, but I very much struggled growing up with the competition side and and kind of the attitude around how you had to be tough to be around horses, because that just wasn't in my nature as a kid and isn't in my nature now, and I now have you know information to back up that you don't have to be that way. That was very much like try and prove you're some kind of cowboy that is entirely unnecessary. Like the horses will speak to you if you're calm to them, they don't need that kind of force. So I love when we have our conversations, and you know, we don't always agree on the same points, but we bring in two different sides where I mentioned multiple times in the podcast I haven't ridden in years. I do still have a very old one-eyed mayor who is living out of retirement in the west of Ireland and with a friend, well, her companion. But they're, I mean, they have the most natural life as we can provide them now because they're on the side of the hills in Connemara. And I've I've struggled with this where I've said, I'm not sure I would ever go back to horse arting again, but I can certainly appreciate it in all its aspects. And it just got me thinking like how important it is, because there's times where I'm definitely feel very staunch in my beliefs. And then I hear Nancy bring in another perspective as well. For example, that, you know, if we do away with certain industries, then initially there will be wastage and there will be suffering. You can't just remove an industry, you have to have a plan in place for how to, you know, support the animals that aren't going to be used in that industry. Or you have an initial widespread suffering. And it's something that opens my eyes. And then when we looked at the papers where we do look at countries where families can't survive without these animals, and also they do, you know, to the best of their knowledge, treat them like a member of the family because these animals are so highly valued in their being able to survive. Um, but I think we've had some people come on the podcast to talk about different aspects of the industry, and just from having the invitation to come on here, Claudia, I started to think about it more around this topic and that we really could go further and get some more diverse, you know, insights and more representation from different areas and different horse owners that are definitely left out of the conversation at the moment because I think the conversation is still really quite small. And when you're talking about like other animal podcasts, there are a lot of science-based ones that I would listen to, but there aren't to me, like I'm often bombarded and flooded with algorithms of human podcasts and human science ones, and I end up interacting with them more as I'm feeding that algorithm. But I don't think there's the same brett that's out there to advocate for animals.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Yeah, I think there's definitely a lot of room to grow kind of podcasting content. There's so much to be said when you think about histories, you think about geographies, you think about different ways in which I mean humans and animals interact, but also just animals and animals interact. You start looking at animal culture alone, regardless of humans' uh connections to them. And it's it's interesting and it's fascinating. And there's enough.

Kate Acton:

But even just to touch Yeah, just to touch on that, there's very little research done into the cognitive ability of a horse. Like what they actually know and understand. And that really blew my mind. Like Nancy and I read a paper, um, I'll have to send you because the author's name has just gone from my head. But they did a study in horses to try and understand if horses could work out how to play a game. And what they found from the study was basically when they hadn't just positive reinforcements, the horses appeared not to understand the game. So they needed to touch um anytime they were given a signal. And if they touched at the right time, they got a reward. But the horses were just repeatedly touching. So sometimes they got a reward, sometimes they didn't. So they seemed to not understand the game. But then when you brought in a negative aspect, so if they touch now at the wrong time, the game stops for a minute. So they have to wait to be able to try and get to get the reward. The uptick in horses that just immediately started playing the game showed and let them hypothesize the horses knew the whole time how to play, but they weren't expending the mental energy. They knew if I just touch it every time, I'm gonna get a treat. The minute the negative aspect was brought in, they're like, oh, okay, now I have to play properly, and they nailed it.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

I can relate, I can relate to that so much. As someone who is inherently impatient when playing games for someone else to take their turn, I'm like, just please hurry up, it's my turn. I'm like, I can relate.

Kate Acton:

But I was like, how are we only figuring this out now? Because people who are around horses all the time that were like, they're so smart, like they're really so intelligent. Why has that not been even delved into?

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

It's remarkable when you when you think about I think the lack of knowledge that comes with domesticated animals in general. So I've I've uh recently finished a season on animals and health, and dogs featured prominently in this season. And this was a key thing, just how little we actually know about dogs. Something like if dogs could choose their own death practices, how would they choose to die? What would they what would they choose to do? Do they have any sort of cultures?

Kate Acton:

Um my dog is death by chocolate. I know that because she's attempted it.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

But I think it's it's it speaks to something, right? Like there's a lot of research that's done in this utilitarian kind of avenue or in agricultural sciences, you know, how do we make agriculture more efficient, more productive? There's a lot of a veterinary there's a lot of really interesting veterinary science research that's kind of thinking about welfare questions, but perhaps not a lot when it comes to domesticated animals that's just interested in them for their own cultures and their own practices and their own ways of thinking.

Kate Acton:

How can you provide enrichment to species when you haven't studied what their needs and wants are? You know, I just find it so fascinating. And I mean, it becomes a harrowing thing when you do look into meat industries and dairy industries and the cognitive abilities of these animals that are kept in, you know, the tiniest spaces that you could only term as prisons. And we just don't seem to connect that. We're just a lot of the time, even as you said, with dogs, we're assuming like, well, they seem to enjoy this, and it might be true, but we're not really delving into what their needs are, the actual basis of it. And even the hierarchy that we use, like the five freedoms and the um Maslow's hierarchy of needs that we try and ascertain to animals, these are so old and outdated, and there's been nothing in recent years to kind of revamp these structures that we're still teaching to students as like the basis of understanding animal welfare. And I would say at this point they're definitely falling short. It's it's not enough.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

I think there's definitely room for science-based students, like, and I'm here. I'm talking about students in biology and veterinary sciences and agricultural sciences, I think to engage with some of the questions that have been emerging in politics, in sociology, and anthropology, because those questions are being asked in these areas of study and research. And I think a lot of important insights have been made by ethnographers, for example, who go in that are not trained like a traditional ethologist, but they're going in with a view and an understanding of animals that's markedly different. And I think this speaks a little bit to your diversity, you know, point there. Is it's there's thinking about diversity on a podcast in terms of race, in terms of colour, in terms of languages, Maria, in terms of geographies, where the stuff is um um emanating from, but also in terms of disciplines and ideas. Like we need to have a diverse range of ideas if we're gonna talk through these um really complex problems in a deep way. Uh Maria, do you have any thoughts here?

María R. Carreras :

Yes, so I was thinking about how the problem here is that most of the research is profoundly speciesist. Uh, and it's the same with um sexism. Most of the research is unfortunately uh ideologically uh sexist, and that's the way that's the reason why also it's lacking a lot of medical knowledge, for example, about the female bodies and so on, human, I mean. Um so these deep harmful harmful ideologies that are all over in academia, I think is the real problem. We are not looking into the uh animals and the animal welfare because of their sake. It's just we want them to produce more, to produce faster, and so on.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Can you unpack a little bit more for me what you mean by that when you say it's ideologically species? Like what does that um what does that really mean? Can you can you help help me understand?

María R. Carreras :

Um so I'm thinking here about the how the majority of research being done related to animals is it's done related to the reproduction of animals and to get the animals produce more for humans, produce more uh faster for us, produce more for us. Also, I I haven't done this research exercise, but I guess if you look at uh the founding opportunities, there's many more founders that are speciesists, and there's a lot of founding coming from speciesist industries that are um the exploiters of animals, for example. Yep. Oh, by the way, by the way, sorry, you were asking about um about what podcasts do we listen to? Yeah, yeah, go ahead. So I am a big fan of a lot of podcasts. And um, for example, if uh you understand Spanish, there's uh podcast that is called Derechos Animales. So it's about the law and animals. And um this is a podcast that an amazing anti-species uh journalist uh does. She's called Lucia Arana. Um, and she's doing this podcast about law and animals. So if you want to practice your Spanish at the same time and that you get to know uh more about laws and animals, you can listen to her. Also, she has an amazing voice. So that's a plus. Then if you understand French, there's an amazing program that it's called uh Common Post on the Law. Uh so translated uh into English is like a fish in the water, I guess. And he does amazing interviews. I have listened there to really interesting people talking there. For example, I remember an interview with um Alice Di Concetto, uh, and she explains in a really complete way all that you have to know about Brussels and Europe and what's being done for the animals in a European context. Then, for example, I I also listened to a podcast that is really um grassroots-based. It's also in Spanish, it's called Lluvia Contruenos. So, yeah, here's some recommendations. I I listened to a lot more, but right now, those are the free.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Fantastic. Kate, any recommendations from you? I was just trying to pick my brain while you were going through them there. In the last year, and I have been majority of the time listening to education podcasts because I'm doing a PhD in uh medical education. So I've been a little bit out of the loop. And then when I have some spare time to listen to other podcasts, it tends to be about uh human research on, you know, improving outcomes as I study. So it's like a an aside to how to improve the information I'm taking in from the other podcasts. Um, but I'll have a think back to some of the ones I was listening to before and I can send them through. No worries. I think what's um, you know, what's interesting is you say that you're you're doing a PhD in education and you're listening to podcasts about education. But I think what the three of us have spoken about today in terms of um our podcasts and the work that our podcasts do is education, right? Like we're not doing that kind of traditional teacher-student relationship. We're doing knowledge dissemination, we're sharing ideas of others, we're mobilizing those ideas of others. Whether we agree or disagree with them, we think those conversations are important to have. And I think that podcasts, at least for me, this has always been my hope with the animal turn, is that it functions as a pedagogical tool, that it's something that can be used in the classroom, that it's something that can be used to make ideas, like you said earlier, Maria, ideas more comprehensible. How do we make what seems really complicated and messy and sometimes something people don't want to talk about and accessible without making it seem simple? Do you know what I mean? Like none of these, none of our topics are simple topics, but they do still need to be accessible so that people feel the ability to enter and and be part of the conversation. So um I hope that podcasting will make an appearance in your PhD on education as a very important pedagogical tool. Um, just another thing, you know, to throw into your PhD because PhDs are super easy to do.

Kate Acton:

Technology is in it. So the use of technology to promote um educational skills is a very broad overview of what it is, but it's it plays a big role. And I think, especially in these days, it's changing so fast, like how students process information that it only makes sense that we start to change how we're teaching. Like I think it's very much gone are the days where you stand up and you just talk for three hours and you think that students are gonna possibly absorb all that information and walk out an expert in that area. Like we just know now it's not possible. But students always really appreciate it as well when you can link them to something like this, because sometimes they just need the mental break from even like if it's the university they're in, like sometimes they just need to source the information somewhere else and feel like it's slightly disconnected to their studying and that way they can enjoy it a little bit more. So I've had a couple of students say where it just feels like it's not entirely work when they do it. And it's the same thing when we have students that follow like informative accounts on Instagram or Facebook, and that way that they're still, you know, having their social media time, whether it's something they enjoy doing or not, or whether they promote that, but it means they're also getting proper information in that way too. So we kind of highlight them towards even Instagram accounts or Twitter feeds to follow or Facebook accounts that they can follow, uh, where we know that the information is properly sourced and that can help them for it.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

It's so tricky because I mean, as someone who's a feminist, I definitely know that the personal is political for sure. But I also find this kind of blending of work and personal is just becoming more and more kind of pervasive. And I see this in my myself as well that the capacity to just relax and do something fun without a productive element tied to it has just become a real um problem. So I like I I I I resonate with what you said there that your students are saying that like I can enjoy this thing because I'm somehow still being productive. And I think this is a I mean, this is a much bigger issue with regards to um I suppose capitalism and and just productive frameworks, but that we really struggle, many of us, I think to just relax and enjoy something for enjoyment's sake and just because we find it interesting for no other reason than I want to listen to this. Somehow, even when I'm procrastinating from one task, I'm procrastinating by doing another task because then I'm like, oh look, look at all these things I got done. Like somehow I'm still productive. And and yeah, I don't know. I don't know if this is like a product of the PhD as well, but this really um I'm having to like try to unlearn this productive mentality. Uh and yeah, you're doing a PhD, Maria, you've done a PhD, and I don't know, you were both nodding while I was talking. So I'm I'm guessing you feel the same way.

Kate Acton:

I think this is the most cleaning and baking I've ever done as I'm planting. I got big into planting because it's like you said, just something where I can step away or feel like I've achieved something. And if I look back on the last two years, because I'm in the end stages of my second year now, I would say there's very little times I've sat quietly. You know, it's it's almost like an expectation for you to be thinking the whole time and working on something the whole time. And I think it's very difficult to turn that off. If you guys figure out how and you can let me know by the time I get to the end of mine, I'd appreciate it.

María R. Carreras :

For me, it was slightly different because what I was doing, my PhD, the PhD was really a project on the side, and it was I considered it as my activism, but still I had to work nine hours a day in a completely different thing to just support myself. So for me it was uh really different. Uh, the work that I did uh 9 to 5 had nothing to do with animals or with the dairy industry that I was researching for my PhD. So yeah, uh with plants, and I was training a lot. I was competing in Olympic weightlifting. What? Amazing. Just to do something completely different. What? I just like randomly throwing it that you're an Olympic weightlifter. Wait, hang on. We didn't Olympic weightlifting, like the discipline, not an Olympic level.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Wow. So very impressive. I know. I can I can barely like lift a bag of rice. So like this is I'm gonna blame my PhD again. It's an easy blame. Sorry, Maria, you were saying?

María R. Carreras :

I was also thinking about how, yes, with our podcast, we are transmitting information and knowledge, but also I think there's a very important element in learning and it's community. We don't learn individually, uh, we are socialized into some knowledge. And you, Claudia, were mentioning before this element of uh being in the ear of someone. I think there's an element of intimacy there. So there's a lot of potential for community building, and I think community building is the most important thing in our lives: building community with all kinds of animals, um, being in communities, learning in community, and developing ourselves with others.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

And I think, I mean, I think this was one of the draws of social media originally, and obviously a lot of people talking about the toxic elements of social media nowadays. But I think originally it was just this idea that folks realized they were not alone, right? And in some ways, I think podcasting does this. I was one of the only people in my department that was studying animal studies, and I was new to animal studies when I started the podcast. And uh I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna do this and why not have conversations with people that actually know what the hell they're doing. So um I went ahead and I recorded them, and my listeners, in many ways, have been part of the journey, right? So almost through my whole PhD, now post-PHD. Um, so in some ways it's my the podcast is my story as well. But it was me learning and and having the openness to say, I actually have no idea what you guys are talking about here right now. And um, and uh in some ways I think I was building my own virtual community, just connecting with scholars and thinkers and having this amazing. I mean, something we haven't spoken about here is just the opportunity to just talk to incredible people that are doing, you know, like we were speaking about our productive lives and trying to find time to do stuff. This podcast, and trust me, my supervisors were like, maybe you should put the podcast on the back burner for a little bit and post there. I'm looking for, I've been unemployed, and we'd be like, maybe you should just not focus on the podcast and leave. And I'm throughout, I've said, no, I like I have to. This is the thing, like I'm compelled to keep this podcast going. And I think in some ways it's my virtual community. Even if I'm not directly with those people, I feel like I'm connecting to and contributing to a much bigger swell of thoughts and ideas. And that feels important and significant. Maybe this is all a narcissistic ploy, I don't know. But on the other end, I think the listeners are also like, oh wow, here's someone who's on the journey as well. And here's someone who's been through their PhD, and here are many other scholars or ideas or people that are engaging in nursing or engaging in activism or engaging in a PhD. I'm not alone, right? There are others that have done this and it's doable and it's it's possible. And I think that that's the more people that are thinking about animals and talking about animals and studying animals and debating and arguing about animals, the better, I think.

María R. Carreras :

Absolutely. Me as a listener to your podcast, to the other podcasts that that I have mentioned, other podcasts such as Minding Animals. I don't know if you have listened to this one, but this is an uh such an important element. While I'm listening to you, I feel that I belong to this community, and that's such a beautiful thing.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Really lovely space to put it there. Why don't we switch to the quotes now, guys? Um, I'm I'm curious to see what you you got ready for the the quotes.

Kate Acton:

So I guess for my one, this was the premise of our paper and the driving force behind our podcast. So our the quote that I have is from the paper, and it says science podcasts can help horse owners to be aware and understand the latest research trends and advancements in equine health behavior and management, and thus enabling them to make more informed decisions when it comes to their horse's welfare. And even through, I suppose, my teaching, because I teach veterinary nurses now, welfare has just always been a very big driving force for me. And I think it's something, as I've mentioned, is not always entirely achievable in veterinary practice. Um, but it's been one of those things that I'm trying to get across the passion to the students that it's about not just survive, we want our patients to thrive, and for them to be able to do that, we need to encompass a holistic approach to the whole patient and try and give the owners as much education as possible because that's a really huge part of the veterinary nurse's role and always has been is being that connector between the owner and the practice. And I think just I suppose to give another side to how we don't always see the impacts on welfare from every point of view, but what I try and get across to our students is a lot of our students will come into a veterinary because they love animals and they're so passionate about animals, and they may not be big fans of people. So soft skills can be quite difficult to develop. And in first year, I always explain to them similarly to having to learn how to suture or to do a tangible skill, you need to learn how to communicate with an owner. Because if you don't learn how to create a community of trust for your veterinary clients, the clients will not reach out to you when there's a problem or they'll feel shame of not understanding something. And then the animal is going to suffer. And you play a role in creating that open environment where discussions can happen, where owners can come forward with ideas and you help guide them in a way that means the animal's going to get the best care. So throughout, I suppose, all of my work now and my podcast and Dehers, it's to just try and get across that we can make real impacts in animals' lives through ways that we might not even perceive. And it can be down to as simple as having good telephone skills. Receptionists are unsung heroes in veterinary practices. Like they are incredible when it comes to helping clients and supporting clients. Um, and yeah, I think sometimes that side is a little bit missed. They just in veterinary can focus in a little bit hyper-focused on the animal and not see all the confounding factors that are going to play a role in how that animal is going to be supported long term.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

I think that's why veterinary ethics is such an interesting um field of study as well, because it does, I think, to some extent try to grapple with these different fields. But like you said, maybe not. And all of us, I think every profession is finding that it's having to do more than what it was previously defined. Even as academics now, you're no longer, you no longer just do research, right? Like this ideal of an academic sitting doing research and lecturing every now and then is not what it is. As a as a as an academic, you need to do research, you need to be a good communicator, you need to do knowledge dissemination, you need to write blog posts and be in videos, and I don't know, like there's just so much you need to, oh, and teach and grade, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think that what I'm seeing is there's so many jobs are requiring these kinds of skills. And I, you know, the the ability to speak and to communicate clearly, especially when the needs of someone else is in place, is like you said, really so important. Um, Kate, I did actually want to ask you earlier on you said that you no longer ride horses. What made you make that decision?

Kate Acton:

I mean, my mare never appreciated it. And I was always quite aware of that. But for many years, I suppose the terminology around that would have been that she was moody or narky is a term that's used quite often. Basically, like she's a she doesn't have a friendly temperament. Um when you look back on it, it's she did not enjoy being ridden. There's it's just something that she never enjoyed. She didn't tolerate people pulling out of her or putting tack on her, um, and she was an activist for the other horses. I guess she stood up for herself time and time again, and she would not give in to um even I hate using some of this terminology, like give in, because in the horse industry, the terminology needs to change greatly. The idea that we still say breaking horses is wild to me. But she never she never gave up hope that she was eventually not be ridden, is the way I see it. So when we took her out of the writing school, because that's we were keeping her in a riding school so she could be trained, because she was quite young when we got her, and she was three and she's now in her 20s. But when we took her out of there and she was in the fields behind our house, I just developed the closest relationship with her where I just would go off and sit with her, or sometimes I would sit on her back, but not with any tack or anything like that. And she would tolerate that. Um, and she really had a sweet nature. She's still very independent and like very stubborn if she doesn't want to do something. But to me, I don't see the need anymore to make her do those things. Like if she doesn't want to go somewhere, you know, she doesn't have to. Like, she doesn't like to go into horse trailers, so I'd walk her into the vet if she needs to go into the vet, or they call out to see her, you know. I think it just really opened my eyes that there wasn't, and I know some horses can thrive in those situations, but there wasn't ever really a situation that I was in growing up, or that was my experience where competing was something a horse looked happy doing. Um, or even when we were riding around the arena, that's never when I saw a so-called happy expression on their faces. That was seen when you let them go in the field at the end of the day. Like when you take the halter off them and they go neighing and running towards each other, and they start, you know, having their community and co-grooming. And that's if you really focus and you understand animal behavior, you see that that's their happiness. And I struggled more as the years went on to try and fit that into I suppose what I grew up with, which is horse riding, it was a huge part of my childhood. And so at the moment I say I'm in this junction of I haven't ridden for years, I don't perceive that I'll write again. But um, yeah, I I don't feel solidified entirely just yet because to me, I think there's a natural way that we can interact with horses. And for instance, with my mare, I haven't for a number of years since she lost her eye. But I used to be able to just sit up on her back and we would wander around the fields and spend time together that way. So I haven't totally ruled out that kind of ideology. But I I have big issues with tack um as a first stop. And I have big issues with the way horses are treated. And even, you know, we have students that come in that come from a horse background that still sadly have this ideology that they need to be tough with the horses that they're handling. And and I just absolutely draw the line at that because I teach horse handling as part of the veterinary nursing program, and they do have to learn how to restrain horses, but we don't teach like course of restraints, and I always try and point out it's the same in dogs and cats, like you know, you can't explain to them why you're restraining them, and if they're in that much fear, you need to consider a chemical restraint so that they're not in fear that you're you know not in any position where you're using force to hold an animal for a procedure. Um so yeah, it's it's trying to get this ethos now across to students, and I know it's hard because I think within the equine industry, um I think a lot of people would roll their eyes out of what I'm saying. That I, you know, that people think that because a mayor is stubborn that you can train that out of them, or you can, you know, maybe we didn't do the right protocols, or we didn't do this with her, or maybe we should have done that with her. But at the end of the day, she was saying this is not what she enjoyed. Exactly. That's become such an important thing to me. Like when you talked about pet ownership in general, like I have a 12-year-old dog, and my focus centers around like what can I do today that she's gonna really enjoy. And even if it's a really busy or stressful day for me, and I know I'm gonna have to study to like 12 o'clock at night, she loves going to the park, so we're going to the park because she didn't sign up to a PhD. So yeah, I think I I'm still trying to work through my my full thoughts on where I stand, I think, with riding, but I think in my soul I know that it's not something that we need to be doing anymore. And I particularly, you know, have issues with competitions and the way horses are managed for for different aspects of competitions. I don't want to point any specifically out. Um, but it's it's hard. And I think this comes back to you talking about community because I think that's something that I've been seeking over the last couple of years and wanting to answer these questions for myself because I'm struggling with knowing it's not right for me, certainly. Um it wasn't right for my horse, and then how to navigate that, you know, going forward in an industry where I very much still have to interact with horses who are in these competitions at these states.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

You've said so many, I think, really important and powerful things in in that story. Um, one, you know, coming back to your quote, this idea of soft skills and soft communication, almost in your story was also soft skills and communication with regards to the animals you're in your life, right? There's soft skills dealing with owners and trying to communicate, but there's also listening and listening to what animals are really trying to tell you. And this idea that the animals are being stubborn when they're resisting is really bizarre. Like this has been used against, we speak about entangled oppressions. Anytime anyone has resisted a hegemonic or a dominant ideology or idea, you know, women were called stubborn or difficult when they were like, I want equal pay, or, you know, I want the right to vote, are these stubborn women? Um, so you know, it becomes it becomes an easy way to dismiss their wants when you just call them stubborn. And I think that that's a really important point. And two, just the side F three, uh, this idea that there's one way to be with the horse, that unless a horse is being ridden, there are not wonderful beings who you can live in community with is just bizarre. Right? There are why why would why would that be the only way in which it I don't ride Linus, I don't ride, you know, I don't ride numerous animals who I'm interconnected with. But somehow this idea that a horse, if you're not riding them, they have no value in your life. You're deficient, their deficient is um is sad, really, for one of the species who we've had the longest running relationships with on earth. It's it's awesome. Yeah, I think.

María R. Carreras :

Yeah, that was such a powerful story. Thank you, Kate, for sharing it. Uh I think it's uh so interesting to see how you see what she wants to do. And also this thing that you mentioned that it's uh remarkable how we um use this word to break the horses. Um I'm very interested in the use of words, and I think in this case it's actually um kind of positive that we use these specific words because this is actually what is happening to them, right? We are breaking them. It's so horrible. Like we are literally breaking their souls and their will. So at least we are not using an euphemism.

Kate Acton:

Well, that's true, yeah. We're being accurate about what we're doing. Exactly.

María R. Carreras :

The horrible thing is that we hear this and we don't connect. Like, wow, we are breaking a being that has willpower, that has desires, that doesn't want to have 50 kilos or 70 kilos of a person up in their back because why would they? Kate, with your with you telling this story, you were uh acknowledging that this mare, this horse, has actually a voice. She's been speaking to you. The thing is that uh it took some time for you to understand what she was trying to say. And um, I actually found this quote in a text by Lauren Corman. Uh, I know she was a guest of yours, Claudia, a few years ago or a few months ago. Okay, and I know that she also used to host her own radio show, and the text is about voices, so it all feels really radio friendly here. Um so this text of uh Lauren Corman is called The Ventriloquist's Burden, um, Animal Advocacy and the Problem of Speaking for Others. And I wanted to quote Patrice Jones as Corman cites them there. Uh in this text, Corman is talking about how Patrice Jones critics animal activists' use of voice and how Jones questions this language that is uh superficially appearing as a benevolent, but in a deeper sense, it's pointing to both um latent arrogance and some kind of paternalism that needs to be challenged. So Patrice Jones, quoted by um Lauren Cormann, says this. Of course, feminists would never tolerate men trying to run the movement against sexism. And could you imagine what would have happened if when I was doing anti-racist work, I had run around saying, I am the voice of the black man. There are no such natural checks on self-importance in the animal liberation movement. We have people running around claiming to be the voice of the voiceless as if animals don't have voices of their own. That heroic attitude makes it easy to assume that you know what's best for the animals without stopping to wonder what they might say if you ask them and were able to understand their answers. So this was the quote. Um always when I listen to Patrice Jones from Vine Sanctuary, I have had the opportunity to listen to them speak about non-human animals who live in there in this Vine Sanctuary. And uh Patrice Jones talks about their agency, their individuality, their personalities, but also the lessons that the humans in the sanctuary are learning from the from the hands, the different animals. And it makes me imagine, want to imagine what it would look like to truly center those voices in a podcast, uh in a podcast format, not just speaking about the other animals, but maybe finding creative ways, respectful ways to make space actually for them in our podcasts. Um yeah, so this was the uh the quote about voices, animal voices.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

I love the juxtaposition of um the story, you you know, Kate, your quotes and Maria, because it actually they speak really well to one another. There was a listening to your mayor there, and there was your mayor speaking with her body. I know Eva Mayor's also done some wonderful work about how animals speak with their bodies, and um, political philosophers talk about how they vote with their feet. You know, they when they walk away from you, this is a clear indicator of what they want and the situation. So this idea of voice for the voiceless, I think, I mean, it was very catchy and it's definitely stuck and it's done a lot of good work. But it's also a matter of, like you said, paternalism. There is something to be said for animals that do have desires and wants. And and yeah, I don't know, like maybe there are horses that do want to be ridden. I'm I'm guessing not. Um, something tells me probably not. This is something that they've been trained or rewarded to do. Um But there are there are clear things that animals say they want. And there are negotiations to be had and devices, you know, when when I walk Linus, he has to wear a leash. Um, unfortunately, he's a dog who will run. If I unclip him, he'll be like, You feed me and you love me, but now I must run to the heels. And he's definitely voting with his feet there, but sometimes I think he's not voting um with cars and other people in mind. And he doesn't hate me. He loves me, he loves me, I'm sure of it. Um But what's interesting is the leash has become this kind of negotiation device as well. When he wants to go into a specific direction, he'll stop, he'll completely stop and be like, come, buddy, we're going this way. And he'll be like, No, we're not. And then I'll have to go and stand next to him and I'll orientate my body. So let's say we're at a four-way intersection, and I'll orientate my body at different directions. And then the moment I'm facing the direction he wants to go, then he starts walking again. So he's realized that I'm responsive to what he's trying to say in that situation. Not always, sometimes he does have to go the way I'm going, but we've figured out a way to talk, um, a way to use our bodies to communicate, which I think is quite um remarkable if you're if you're open to listening to it. Um, yeah, thank you. That's a really great quote. Patricia's Vine Sanctuary is a is a wonderful and beautiful place. Yeah, that's just really stood out to me, Maria, because we always say and the nurses are the advocate for the patient in practice and that you need to advocate for your patient. And I never thought about it from the point of view because it is a rhetoric, and among people, I've said it, I'm sure, and among people I work with, where we would say we need to be their voice, even though all along I'm knowing that they're telling me. So it's not that we need to be their voice, they are able to speak. We need to highlight to people how to read that. So maybe we're the translators in the intermediate, but it's actually educating people on how to understand animals and understand what they're asking. And I love that that they vote with their feet. I'm gonna definitely tell my students that, and just on the point of even down to the point of walking dogs, what I try and tell my students is you're taking for granted some concepts of restraints that we use with animals. Like dogs have always been walked on collars and leads. So that is natural to you that they're put on a collar and a lead. But I was like, you need to educate an owner on how to use a collar and a lead. Because we talk about the different types, of course, of um restraint techniques and owners that, you know, in some countries it's not bans to have um the prong collars. So, like the collars that if the dog pulls, um the prongs will stick into the neck to try and teach them not to pull, or even the choke chains. And I was explaining to my students that even a collar and a lead in the wrong hands can be a very coercive restraint to an animal. It's there's no, you know, simple black and white just because this is something that we see every day. You see owners like drag their dogs down the street, and it's it's really awful to watch. Um, so I really love that you highlighted that point that you're responding to him and saying, like, well, actually, this is the way we're going to go, and that he's picking up your cues, and it's a conversation between you versus you saying, like, no, we're going this way, like, I'm in charge. Because again, that comes into animals a lot, and I'm sure both of you come up against this a lot, but this alpha mentality that you need to be the pack leader, and all these terms that it's like, well, that's that doesn't have to happen in a house. You just need to have a conversation and an understanding, and you can very much positively train boundaries, you know, it doesn't have to be something. I mean, I will I will be honest. I I also fall into this trap sometimes of of using, you know, my relationship with pet keeping has changed a lot since having Linus. And I think in many ways, I view it increasingly problematic. It's someone, it's it's almost tyranny in some ways, where the scope of his decision making and his what he wants to do is so defined by my desires and my wants and my moods. If I happen to be in an irritable or abrupt mood, and I mean you think about this with regards to your significant others, you're in a bad mood and your your spouse gets the brunt of it, and it's just not it's not fair. And this collar, you know, sometimes I even think about it in terms of the way he's smelling, right? So you read Alexander Horowitz's work, and she speaks about how this is literally, it's their primary sense. It's the way they see the world. They're building a picture with their sense of smell. And I think, okay, he's sitting there, he's smelling. And I mean, I I try my best to not do this, but I've certainly seen many others do it. And you're pulling them along, and he's trying desperately to get a full picture. So I imagine this as you have gotten to a place and you're trying to scope your surroundings, and someone is just pushing you constantly on your shoulder, and you're just like being jarred that you can't actually get the picture of what it is you're trying to see, or not being given the time and just how frustrating that must be, beyond the kind of violence and the restraints that we talk about, just the absolute frustration at not being able to just get a picture of what it is you're trying to get a picture of, I think is um quite remarkable. And Maria, to come back to your idea of how we could include animals more in podcasting, I think that's really important and interesting. And and you know, it's here it's about thinking, I think, about the podcast producer and also the consumer. So, what would people listen to? And I think birds often make an appearance onto podcasts. You do hear a lot of bird sounds and bird songs. I don't know if we've gone into a space yet where people appreciate the sounds of other animals as much in the podcasting platform. I'm not too sure. But there are perhaps ways we can foreground them. So I know the animal highlight is a spin-off of the animal tone where I try to like it's been interesting because I work with other scholars and I say to them, listen, you're talking about the animal, but you're not allowed to talk about the human's view of the animal. You need to really try and like focus on why the animal is awesome and what's important here for the animal and the animal's interest. And even that, like it's challenging. It's really, really, really difficult to do to try and decenter the human when you're talking about animals. Have you found that in your own work as well?

María R. Carreras :

Yes, I I have reflected a little bit about this. And when I was doing my PhD on the dairy industries, um strategic communication, then I took some time to really research on cows. Um how old are they? What do they like? What would they rather be doing instead of being uh impregnated uh each year and so on? So, yeah, I think when you are studying other animals' issues, even if you are studying the industries that exploit them, I think it's um the right thing to do to try to get more information about the individuals. Of course, you cannot get to know them uh individually, but at least um get to know a little bit more about their species and so on. It would be interesting.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Yeah, I think that's really important. You meet a lot of people that are doing work on like cats or koalas as and they they focus on the economy and they focus on a whole bunch of really important aspects, but they don't really somehow they forget to see the animals. And we need to really make sure that we see them. Why don't we wrap things up uh here a little bit? Uh thank you so much for for your time today. Before we close, could you tell me a little bit about what you're working on now? And then if people want to learn more about your work or about your podcast, where can they go to find more?

Kate Acton:

Um so if you're looking for more information in relation to what I'm up to, probably LinkedIn is the best way to follow me. So it's just Kate Acton on LinkedIn. And on the University College Dublin where I work, I have a profile there as well. So my research interests are listed there for anyone that's looking to collaborate. But I am tied into research for the next two years. So at the moment, I'm working on um education and it's medical education, but with a view to focusing in on veterinary. Um, I'm just in the first stages now where we're looking into educational strategies. But really, the background to it is how to even the playing field for learners and essentially teach the techniques of so-called strong students to so-called weak students. And so everyone has the same opportunity for learning. So that's really the goal of my PhD. Um, and then yeah, I guess uh aside from that, like just podcasting. If anyone would like to come on, if there's any veterinary nurses that would like to come on the veterinary nursing podcast, or anyone um equine related that wants to reach out, then they can get me through LinkedIn.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Wonderful. Do you also talk to people about like uh horse history and different horse industries, or is it only really focused on horse uh welfare?

Kate Acton:

Yeah, no, industries, different, um, different research areas, and we've done a couple of episodes where Nancy's gone through the history of the horse. So all areas related to equine and equine sites is just the main focus.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Fantastic. Great, thank you so much. Maria, how about you?

María R. Carreras :

So what I'm doing right now, right now I'm teaching communication at Halmstadt University, which is a university here in Sweden. But actually, my contract is ending soon. So at the moment, I'm mainly focusing on preparing postdoc applications and exploring other academic opportunities. Sometimes I still write for Spanish media newspapers. Um that's why I am actually on a break for the podcast right now. Um, my current research, which I pursue in my free time because I am hired to teach, uh, follows two main lines, I can say. One is related to caste and the other one isn't. So, related to critical animal studies, um, I am involved in several projects, um, researching about vegan journalism, also intersectionality, also communication and animals in the context of war. Um, and the other line of research, which is totally unrelated to critical animal studies, is focusing on the teaching of strategic communication in higher education and also the marketing of the strategic communication programs. And if people want to follow me, I usually share my work on this kind of platforms, uh, researchgate, academia.edu, I think it is. Uh, so feel free to follow me there. I'm also on Mastodon and on Blue Sky, so you can look for me there.

Claudia Hirtenfelder:

Great, I'll put all those links in the show notes. But thank you both of you for uh joining me today on the show to speak about animals. I I think we didn't really get to speaking about those intersections, kind of thinking through, but I we spoke about different varieties of intersections. We spoke about diversity, we spoke about language, we spoke about animals' voices and and their significance in podcasts and perhaps what we can do in future. So thank you so much for joining me on the hundredth. Hopefully, if my editing all works out, the hundredth episode of the show. Kate, good luck with your PhD. Maria, good luck with all the postdoc applications, and uh, we'll be in touch again soon. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to share this time with you. Thank you to Kate and Maria for being wonderful guests and for sharing so generously of their experiences and thoughts with regards to podcasting. Thank you also to Animals and Philosophy, Politics and Law and Ethics for sponsoring this podcast and the Pollination Project, the School of Modern Language and the Ivan Allen College of Liberal Arts, as well as the School of Literature, Media and Communication at Georgia Tech University for sponsoring this season. The bed music was composed by Gordon Clark and the logo designed by Jeremy John. This episode was produced, hosted, and edited by myself. This is the Animal Turn with me, Claudia Hirtenfelder. That's I R O A R P O D.com.

Head Shot

Claudia Hirtenfelder

Host
Head Shot

Kate Acton

Guest
Head Shot

María R. Carreras

Guest

Podcasts we love

Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.

The Animal Highlight Artwork

The Animal Highlight

Claudia Hirtenfelder
Knowing Animals Artwork

Knowing Animals

Josh Milburn
Species Unite Artwork

Species Unite

Species Unite
The Other Animals Artwork

The Other Animals

Laurent Levy
Beyond Species Artwork

Beyond Species

Beyond Species
The Anthrozoology Podcast Artwork

The Anthrozoology Podcast

Anthrozoology Podcast
Freedom of Species Artwork

Freedom of Species

The Freedom of Species Team
Derecho y Animales Artwork

Derecho y Animales

Derecho y Animales
Storytelling Animals Artwork

Storytelling Animals

Dayton Martindale
Species Artwork

Species

mackenmurphy.org
Animal Law Matters Artwork

Animal Law Matters

K & R Animal Law
The Humanimal Connection Artwork

The Humanimal Connection

Humanimal Trust
Think Like a Vegan Artwork

Think Like a Vegan

Emilia Leese
The Salmon People Artwork

The Salmon People

Canada's National Observer
Comme un poisson dans l'eau Artwork

Comme un poisson dans l'eau

Victor Duran-Le Peuch
Sentient: The Podcast Artwork

Sentient: The Podcast

Sentient Media