The Animal Turn
Animals are increasingly at the forefront of research questions – Not as shadows to human stories, or as beings we want to understand biologically, or for purely our benefit – but as beings who have histories, stories, and geographies of their own. Each season is set around themes with each episode unpacking a particular animal turn concept and its significance therein. Join Claudia Hirtenfelder as she delves into some of the most important ideas emerging out of this recent turn in scholarship, thinking, and being.
The Animal Turn
Bonus: Creativity with Carol Gigliotti
Using Carol Gigliotti’s book “The Creative Lives of Animals” as a backdrop, this episode explores animals and the creative process. From the artistic intricacies of humpback whales' bubble-net feeding to the sophisticated communication skills of prairie dogs, Carol guides us through a world where animals demonstrate remarkable creativity, highlighting how they make meaning for themselves.
Date Recorded: 6 March 2024
Carol Gigliotti is an author, artist, animal activist, and scholar whose work focuses on the reality of animals’ lives as important contributors to the biodiversity of this planet. She is Professor Emerita of Design and Dynamic Media and Critical and Cultural Studies at the Emily Carr University of Design, Vancouver, BC. Canada. Her book, The Creative Lives of Animals, (NYU Press, 2022) challenges the current assumptions of creativity, offering a more comprehensive understanding through recognizing animal creativity, cognition, consciousness, and agency. She is the editor of the book, Leonardo’s Choice: Genetic Technologies and Animals (Springer, 2009) and the author of numerous book chapters and journal essays on animals. Her work is supported by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada, The Sitka Center for the Arts, and Coppermoss, among others. Gigliotti is on several international advisory boards concerned either with media or animal studies and regularly reviews books in critical animal studies. Learn more about Carol on her website.
Featured:
- The Animal Highlight, a sister podcast
- Animals and Experience, season 2 of The Animal Turn Podcast
- The Creative Lives of Animals by Carol Gigliotti
- Animal Creativity and Innovation by Allison B Kaufman and James C Kaufman
- An Immense World by Ed Yong
- Adventures Among Ants by Mark Moffett
- Types of Intelligence by Howard Gardner
- Holekamp research on hyenas
- The Cultural Lives of Whales and Dolphins by Hal Whitehead and Luke Rendell
- The Case for Animal Rights by Tom Regan
Wildlife mysteries, crazy news, and daring animal stories—listen now!
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
A.P.P.L.EAnimals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of iROAR Network. Find out more on our website.
This is another iRaw podcast, but I really thought it was important, if we were going to talk about animals, to use the word meaningful, because it was important that the idea that meaning animals are making meaning. Through this process, they have the ability to make meaning for themselves. We do not have to give that meaning to them.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to the Animal Turn everyone. This is a bonus episode and we're going to be doing a book review of a really, really awesome book called the Creative Lives of Animals. And the reason I'm doing this review is because several people recommended that I read the book. I read the book and the book is great. So I reached out to Carol Gigliotti and her publishers to see if she would come on the show and they said yes.
Speaker 2:So today I'm joined by author Carol Gigliotti, who is also an artist, animal activist and scholar whose work focuses on the reality of animals' lives as important contributions to the biodiversity of this planet. She's Professor Emerentia of Design and Dynamic Media and Critical and Cultural Studies at the Emily Carr University of Design in Vancouver, bc, canada. Her book, the one we'll be talking about today, the Creative Lives of Animals, challenges the current assumptions of creativity, offering a more comprehensive understanding through recognizing animals' creativity, cognition, consciousness and agency. She's also the editor of a book, leonardo's Choice, genetic Technologies and Animals, and the author of numerous book chapters and journal essays on animals. Her work is supported by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada, the SIPCA Centre for the Arts and Copper Moss, among others. Carol is on several international advisory boards and she's concerned either with media or animal studies and she regularly reviews books in critical animal studies.
Speaker 2:She was really generous with her time. We had a wonderful conversation and we delved into a whole host of different things, because creativity is just so rich. It made me think a little bit about previous conversations that I had during season two and talking about animals and experience, and a lot of those ideas about how we think through, how animals experience the world kind of came up again and again for me in this episode. Now, if you don't have this book on your shelf and you would like one of the copies of this book, keep your eyes peeled. I will be running a little bit of a giveaway for another version or copy of the Creative Lives of Animals. So make sure you check us out on our social media pages on Twitter, on Instagram and on LinkedIn, and I'll be sharing posts via there telling you and giving you details on how you can win a copy of that book.
Speaker 2:And while we're about it, I am starting a new kind of shindig, or thingamabob, where I want to give credit to people who take the time to write reviews for the show. I really appreciate it. Those of you who send emails and write reviews do a lot to help others find the show, and I'm going to tell you the one from Amore, who also sent me an email saying I wanted to write a quick message to let folks know how wonderful this podcast is, thank you. The quality of the podcast and their webpage clearly demonstrate the incredible amount of time, thought and energy Claudia and her team put into it. So thank you so much for that and thank you to Rebecca, christian, the fellows, everyone else who helps out with making the Animal Turn what it is. This person says season four is one that speaks to them most. They love learning about new sounds, technologies and methodologies. I absolutely love the sound season myself. Thank you so much, amre, for taking the time to let us know what you think about the show.
Speaker 2:If you like the Animal Turn or you're interested in introducing maybe people that are not as kind of scholarly or interested in long form podcasts to another animal study-ish kind of show, check out the Animal Highlight. The Animal Highlight is a sister podcast and spinoff of the Animal Turn. Many of you will know that during our seasons we have a small segment called the Animal Highlight. I've now made that an independent podcast. It's launched. We've got our second season rolling out. It's really, really cool. They're five to 10 minute episodes or five to 15 minute episodes and they're much more accessible. So if you've maybe got people in your lives who you think, ah, this is a nice way to get them thinking about animals, then tell them to go and check out the animal highlights. Okay, I've babbled on too much and for too long. Thank you so much everyone for listening to the show and I hope you enjoy listening to Carol. Tell us all about it. Hello, hello, hello.
Speaker 1:Carol, welcome to the Animal Turn podcast. Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:It's great to have you on the show. I've just finished reading your book and it's been an absolute joy to read. Yeah, I think creativity is such an interesting and dynamic field and your book actually came up at a panel discussion where people were talking about animals and ethics and someone held up. I think it was Annie Potts.
Speaker 1:She held it up and she was like everybody has to read this book. And she was right, it's absolutely amazing.
Speaker 2:I've very much enjoyed reading this book and she wasn't the first person to suggest it. So when I had three suggestions, I was like, okay, I have to reach out to your publishers and read this book.
Speaker 1:That's very nice to hear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's phenomenal. So perhaps we could start with learning a little bit about you and how you became interested in questions of creativity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I am an artist and now a writer, started out as an actress. So you know my thoughts about creativity. I've been thinking not about creativity but being creative for most of my life. That's just how my life has been. But I, you know, taught at the university. Well, I taught first of all at the university and then taught in high school for about five years, which really did get me thinking about creativity because, you know, actually thinking about creativity itself rather than the practice of creativity. But you know, teaching high school students is just amazing. I actually miss it sometimes. I still sometimes hear from my high school students which you know, is, oh, my goodness, 40 years ago, so they're all grown. Some of them are artists, designers, you know, which was really very unusual for that high school. So, but I, I have taught at the university level for the, you know, probably 30 years and I've taught thousands of students.
Speaker 1:I have a background as an actress first and then really wanted to. I decided I didn't like saying other people's words, which doesn't help when you're an actress, like making up your own dialogue. But I had always drawn and so I really started to paint, actually while I was still in university for theater. But I kept that up and then I went back and got an MFA in printmaking and then quite a while later, when I was in my 40s just as I turned 40, I went off to get a doctorate at the Advanced Computing Center for Arts and Design and I did high-end graphics, computer graphics, which was a challenge for me, not visually but in terms of the software that you were using, which was sometimes, you know, I was just learning to program. But again, I just learned quite a bit. I wrote actually my dissertation on aesthetics and ethics of interactive technology, specifically virtual environments, and that was many, many years ago, kind of before everything, let's say it was. I graduated in 1993 from the doctorate. So in any case, I taught lots of different kinds of students, so visual arts students, designers, people who were doing computer graphics, because I did get a job at that university and taught at the Advanced Computing Center and then when I got recruited up to Canada, I left and went to teach students there.
Speaker 1:And, of course, emily Carr University of Art and Design is an amazing place and the creativity there is pretty monumental. I mean, you're surrounded by creativity all the time the faculty, the students and it was really, really a good experience. I had already started writing about animals in about 2004,. But I'll let you ask more questions. But I just wanted to say that I've been an animal activist probably since, you know, I was a teenager and then into all those years and you know, I still think of myself as an activist and an advocate and you know, putting creativity and animals together is just was kind of a no brainbrainer for me. And also when you are an artist, it's kind of like people with hammers you always are thinking about creativity. Just like people with hammers, they're always thinking about what they could hit. So that's a background for me.
Speaker 2:I love that explanation and your background for a number of reasons. I mean you say so. Maybe someone with an engineering type mind or an engineering inclination is thinking how can I build this or how can I do this? But someone who's exposed to the arts early on I was also a drama kid myself. I was on the stage from the age of five and I think you think about the world differently when you're you know.
Speaker 2:I've said to several people that I think one of my best learning activities in school I mean I loved being in the classroom. I wasn't the best student, but I enjoyed learning. But one of my key kind of skills or takeaways from high school was drama, was learning to speak in public, was learning how to actually manage my fear and emotions on doing that, and it's something that I think is a skill that's really undervalued and it is a creative process. You go on to do things like improvise, things go wrong on stage and you have to figure out how to, you know, pivot. So I really appreciate how your journey is not just this like static.
Speaker 2:Oh, I was in this one field. You know you meet some people and there's nothing wrong with that. Some people when they're 10 and they're like this is what I'm going to do and they've got this vision. But then there are other folks and I feel like I recognize a bit of myself in you because you know you look back and you think, oh, I've done a bit of this and I've done a bit of just following your interests and seeing kind of shades of what you've done before in this next thing. So really like a remarkable journey and the fact that you've done design and really cool.
Speaker 2:But the thing I wanted to ask you about was the high school students, because it seems to me as though there's a really interesting connection between watching people learn and identifying creativity, because there is that moment of seeing something Anyone who's taught has seen, that moment when you know that you're excelling as a teacher, because you see things happen in the brain. It's like it's expressed on the face. And so was this the time when you started to really think about creativity as a concept you wanted to explore more in depth.
Speaker 1:Yes, it was, and even in my own work it really taught me because I'm an artist, you know, and still, even as I'm writing more and more, I'm still making art, you know.
Speaker 1:It really taught me the creative process and I talk about that a lot in the book and I think that's really helpful to understand creativity in animals as well, because I used that, you know, primary research and I say that because sometimes even in animal studies, you know, artists are respected but a lot of people think that artists and creative people don't have any methodology and, having been trained, you know both actually in philosophy and the arts, I mean, you know, I'm always thinking about methodology and they do, and it's there are lots of theories about it One of the things that I felt in terms of creativity.
Speaker 1:It is possible to study creativity in many different ways and certainly ways and certainly you know, in the book I used lots of research from biologists and ethologists and neuroscientists and evolutionary biologists and other biologists, so there was lots of that, but I felt like what I had to give to that and what my sort of added value was was my ability to understand the creative process and, you know, creativity itself is very large. It's a large, as I think about it, a universal quality. So actually the creative process allows us to kind of handle how creativity works. And again, there are lots of theories on this and maybe we can talk about those in a bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that would be interesting. So maybe you can walk us a bit through the creativity process, because I know at some point you speak about how there's a lot of research into intellect and intelligence. A lot of people have done research into intelligence, but not as much attention has been afforded to creativity. So perhaps you could do a double step there in telling me one why do you think that is? Why has creativity kind of been neglected in this type of talk? And secondly, what is it when you say the creative process?
Speaker 1:What do you mean? Okay, first, I don't think creativity has completely been neglected for humans. There's lots of research in creativity on humans. I do think that it's been now. I think right now not when I started the book, but right now I think there's even more creativity on and it's growing all the time creativity in animals, and that's really great. When I started I originally a long time ago, and I'll tell you maybe why that happened but I found an essay by the Kaufmans he's a psychologist and she's a biologist and it was a very it was actually a structure of what animal creativity could look like and I was just blown away. I was like, yes, yes, other people are thinking this too.
Speaker 1:You know, not just and of course, through history, I think many people, certainly indigenous people, have been very aware of creativity in animals, but in terms of a sort of Western thinking, but also just scientific thinking, creativity was not in animals, was not really looked at, because of course it was thought not to exist. And students and graduate students you know people in the sciences were told of course it would be anthropomorphic to think that animals had creativity. So that's kind of one reason why I think that creativity was really not something that people absolutely insisted on researching if they were in the biological sciences. So it's really hard to kind of research something when it's, according to those that say they know, it's proven not to exist Animals couldn't have that, couldn't have creativity.
Speaker 1:And of course exist. Animals couldn't have that, couldn't have creativity. And of course you know people who were doing intelligence. I think that was kind of a natural place for a lot of scientists to start, because they think about intelligence in a way that I and it did really kind of put animals on the map in a way that many people could understand that and accept. One of the problems with creativity is that up until recently creativity was thought of something that only certain people had and those people were geniuses. And again, this is a big change now. But over time in the arts certainly, that has begun to change.
Speaker 2:What I really like, though, about this contrast between intelligence and creativities is, like you said, biologists kind of seem to go straight to intelligence, and I think you pointed a bit to the idea of Western science, and somehow the brain and intellect was put as a feature. That is, above all else. If you're intelligent or if you're a genius, then you're really amazing, and it's interesting because there you said, creativity was tied to geniusness as well, but in some ways I think it was almost seen as being less accountable or, you know, less able to account for, you know, creativity was almost ephemeral, whereas intelligence was something you could measure, you could account for. And then you start to talk now about the creative process, and it seems like there's a bit of passing apart here now of creativity, recognising that it's not just this innate thing. Yes, there's aspects to personality, but creativity is also a practice, it's something that you can do, and it's something that many of us do do. So maybe we could go back to that. When you say creative process, are there specific aspects of a creative process?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there are many. Again, there are many theories. I was and I actually got a criticism from maybe one reviewer that mentioned they weren't sure why I had used Mihaly's, csikszentmihalyi's theories of the creative process, and it's because I felt that his was closest to what I did when I was and my students and was kind of the most broadly accepting theory about the creative process. And the thing about the creative process is that it is not linear, it's iterative. The thing about the creative process is that it is not linear, it's iterative. You're always going back and changing things, looking at things. I mean this of course happens in writing. When you're doing draft after draft and certainly in any kind of art form, you're still going back and changing and looking at things differently. It's not again, it's not linear. But there are certain parts to that and that's why it's also called linear, because, for instance, the first part would be preparation and that isn't. That could mean anything. That could mean you sitting there for hours just thinking it could mean you're just looking at trees, for you know hours, and then you come home and write something that doesn't have anything to do with trees, but you're preparing by looking at those trees and I'm just making up kind of examples. But the second, and that anyway, that preparation could go on for a long time. I mean, an example would be you know, when you're thinking about writing a book. It could go on, for instance, the Creative Lives of Animals.
Speaker 1:I had been thinking about it for good Lord you know, 20 years or 15 years before I actually wrote the book. I wrote, started the book in 2012, and I had been thinking about it, at least very specifically, not as a book, but just thinking about it, in 2004 at least. The next phase is incubation, as Chick Mintzehi talks about and as I sort of think about it, as Chick Mintzee Hai talks about, and as I sort of think about it is when you are again just kind of letting it mulch in your mind. That's one way that somebody I met has put it, and I think that really it's kind of you're turning it over and you're not even thinking about it, but it is turning over, even unconsciously. The next one is insight, and that one I think a lot of people think that is creativity, only the insight. Oh, yes, that's it, I have it, and, and that usually comes after there's been a lot of work done, both a preparing and then an incubation, you know, for instance, in writing the book.
Speaker 1:I would say the earlier years were preparation. The incubation was when I was writing the book in some ways, was when I was writing the book in some ways, but the insight was after I had collected all the research in the incubation time and the preparation time. But and again, this is iterative but the insight was when I finally realized that this was a such a large activity that this was a universal. Creativity was universal. I'd always thought that I had read David Baum, the conceptual physicist, and had a number of ideas from him on creativity. He has a book on creativity he's dead now, but everyone should read that book. But it was the idea that, as individuals, that was then being transferred to other beings, that activity, and then it was being. It became part of biodiversity and we can go into that later. But that idea of this was connected to biodiversity. I don't know why it didn't hit me before, but it did when I was writing the book.
Speaker 2:Oh, so you're meaning the idea that creativity is connected to biodiversity. That was your kind of key insight. So you were going through this process, you were collecting everything about creativity and then and I mean I find that I also have insights kind of as I'm writing. Like I think writing is my thinking space. It's often quite messy, it's like moving things around, it's it's it's almost like figuring out a puzzle. And then you I think everyone who's written something or worked on a project has had that kind of moment when things click, when you're like my god, that's the, the mud, the mud has become clay somehow. You know like it's, you figure, you figure it out, and I think that that connection you made between creativity and biodiversity is really quite fascinating. So we'll definitely come back to that once we're through the creative process. We'll iterate ourselves back to it. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:And then the evaluation of course was would anybody publish this? But you know, yes, I mean you're evaluating those ideas, I was evaluating what, how I was writing it, obviously creatively, or you know, that's part of it for me. But there is that evaluation stage and I think that also is iterative. I laugh because people somehow think that you should never. You know, if you're creative, you never have any doubts and I always like to tell people no, no, no, no, you do have doubts all the time. You could get. You know, you could win the Pulitzer Prize and still have doubts.
Speaker 1:Ed Young, who is a science writer who I, you know, have read for a long time and I really like him, and his book came out on the Siemens World yes, the perceptions of animals and how they perceive things Really interesting book. And I didn't actually read it until after the book. But I got a kick out of him saying that. You know, after I won the Pulitzer Prize, I just thought, okay, my career is going to be over, I didn't know what to write. And you're like yes, I know, it's just. I mean I didn't read a Pulitzer Prize, obviously. But you know, no matter how many times people say the book is really good. I'm like really, and you know, and there's sometimes you think, yes, I know it's good very much a part of creativity, because if you're not doubting and you just are taking it completely to what you think is the end point, you probably missed something really important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think any sort of product or thing you produce, whether it's a painting or a performance or a piece of written work, it's always a piece of something right, like when you write a book or you write an article, you start out with 10 times more of the stuff than you have, and you have to do this kind of synthesizing and streamlining and crafting. And streamlining and crafting and molding and painting or blending, whatever medium you're using, and I think that what you end up with is always kind of an approximation of the complexity that's actually going on in your mind. It's never fully captured. So I think that that's maybe part of that kind of process of what was missing.
Speaker 2:Okay, I have to come back around, how do I? And it can be a torturing process, but it can also be really rejuvenating. So this creative process and I think it's been nice using your process of writing here as a kind of metaphor and an example for how creative process works. But let's bring it to animals now. So I think many of us can relate to what you're saying in terms of creativity.
Speaker 1:Yes, but how does that work with animals?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Like what. What are we talking about here with the creative process or creativity and animals?
Speaker 1:We can even put aside the, the we missed one thing that was in the elaboration ah, okay, and what that is is, once something is a product or is a something whether it's for us, a painting, a piece of work for, let's say, a chimpanzee, how they're using a particular blade of grass to fish out termites they might start to look at other ways and elaborate on that initial finding or that initial creative moment.
Speaker 1:So for animals, I think a lot of the creative process happens where we can't see it, just like for human beings. So one of the reasons why I think creativity is really hard to investigate is that so much of it happens, both for us and for animals, in an interior way, and for animals in an interior way, and unless you are right there at the moment where a particular animal has an insight, which would be pretty amazing, you're not even going to see that insight, and actually you don't really see it with artists either, or writers, because we're all off in our little corners. So I think it's really important that we realize that there is, that those things are going on and we need to think about them as well as what the actual product is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, the outcome. So I think something that you drove home quite well in the book was that I mean as much as there is an individual process and I think the individual is kind of key to a creative process but it's also born of the environments that the individual is in and the social relationships that that individual is in, and what are the outcomes of these? So, whether I mean product is one way to put it, but what are the things that are manifest in the world? Do you know? Like what do you actually see? And your book is filled with examples of things that biologists, mythologists are kind of like evidence of creative or creative processes, right, whether it's the whales forming a circle, creating bubbles.
Speaker 1:Well, that whale example or not whale, it was humpbacks example of making these bubble nets in order to catch fish, and I think that's a really good example. First of all, it's not something that a lot of people know about unless they know something about humpbacks and know something about not even creativity, but about animals in general. But that particular example I think was interesting because no one saw the initial creative impetus for that. But there were. Let me explain it for those people who don't know. It is that what happens is that a humpback will go beneath the water and start blowing bubbles that kind of go into a make, a vortex, and then the humpback will go up at the bottom, will go up into pushing, blowing air into that vortex that has been made to trap fish, and so then at the top, that particular humpback then gets the fish and it's quite an elegant thing to watch.
Speaker 1:When I've done talks I've usually put a video of that in from above because it's really quite beautiful. But that is also a very social activity. You need at least two to complete this to actually make it work. So a lot of examples that I found were always as if mostly that things had already happened and the researcher was finding them out being taught to other animals. An animal was teaching another animal, and whether that was like sponge sponges as tools for dolphins, where only the mother teaches that to her offspring. So it is a particular behavior that is matrilinear, which I think is also really quite interesting, and only certain groups of dolphins do this in certain areas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's quite significant to point out because I think a lot of people would say, you know, when they hear about a specific species doing something, they would think I think they do go to the biological. They say, well, oh, that's just instinct, so they're born doing that. Somehow they just know how to do it, which is maybe the case for some behaviors. But when you look at whales or chimps or even prairie dogs I loved your stories about prairie dogs and the kind of complexity of their language you start to realize, well, wow, okay, this isn't just at a species level, this is specific locations, specific groups, figuring out challenges.
Speaker 2:And I think that the example you gave of prairie dogs and the complexity of their language so for listeners, the fact that prairie dogs, when they see a predator or a potential threat coming by or someone coming by, they don't just say oh, threat, they've got a really complex language where they're able to say, oh, big black dog coming or human coming, and based on literally color, size, speed at which it's approaching, and that's just an incredible example of social communication and adaptability. Now, those same types of words adaptability, et cetera have obviously been used in biology a lot, but I think what you do. That's quite special in the book is you take these words that have been quite sterilized, I think, in these sciences, and you apply them and say well, creative social processes the same but also different processes to what we do are significant, they matter, they're important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I don't know if they're so different in the process. I think the process actually is very similar, but the way of using the creative process because, for know, we are not prairie dogs and we have a language that we can understand, but they use a totally different language that they understand spent his whole life in the field and is still working, actually right now, on AI and animal languages, which is a whole subject, a whole other subject. But I do think that what I found so interesting too was that, even though he and his students had been in the field, you know, long periods of time, and were videotaping everything and recording everything, they thought for sure that this animal that was coming up was a German shepherd. They thought, oh, what is this, what is this? And they thought for sure it was a German shepherd. They thought, oh, what is this, what is this? And they thought for sure it was a German shepherd.
Speaker 1:And yet the prairie dogs were saying coyote, coyote, coyote, run to your dens, don't stay out. They were alarm calls all over the place, and when I say alarm calls, that's kind of what they used to be called, but basically in their language they were saying get in the den, here comes a coyote. I mean very specifically, because they were saying this is a coyote. And as the animal got closer and closer, sure enough the prairie dogs were right and the human experimenters or the human researchers were wrong and the human experimenters or the human researchers were wrong.
Speaker 1:So there were all kinds of things that the prairie dogs knew and had perceived that was not being perceived by the humans and that, I think, is really interesting too, because when we think about these social creative things we think about, one of the things was and I'm not kidding, people would always say well, you know, and people still do say well, animals don't create symphonies. Well, no, have you ever heard a bird sing? Have you ever heard a whole chorus of birds? When you listen to whale song, when you listen to bird song, the beauty of those vocalizations, those songs and they are songs is fantastic, and there are a number of people, like Hollis Taylor, you know, who are writing about that. But I do think that it's the perceptions of animals. How animals perceive things is very specific to, of course, their particular practice of the creative process.
Speaker 2:How do you connect communication and creativity? Because some people might be listening to this saying well, okay, so the prairie dogs are alerting each other to the presence of, whether it's a human or a wolf or a coyote or a German shepherd, they very obviously have a very skilled language set and communication. But how is communication tied to creativity? Because there are many ways to communicate, right, whether it's leaving a scent trail, whether it's smelling a scent trail, whether it's making an alarm call. So what is creative about communication?
Speaker 1:So what is creative about communication? Well, it's a good question. We could ask again the same thing of ourselves. We communicate in very different ways, but there are ways that animals have of communicating that don't have to do with alarm calls, that don't have to do with feeding, and it doesn't mean that these are rare. It just means that we haven't been able, in our way of research, to find these things as readily as the kinds of things that are more creative, things that are attuned to our need for doing something. But communication itself is a need, it's a social need, and it's one that we have and animals have. So, for instance, just to go back to the prairie dogs again, if we see something or we're trying to actually communicate something that we think is unusual, we might make up another word that has never been used before, and that's exactly what animals do. So Slobachikov and his students brought out, they cut out an oval out of wood and then pulled it into about the size of a coyote, and then pulled it into the colony, and prairie dogs reacted in a different way and actually made a new call for this particular black oval, knowing it wasn't a coyote, but they weren't sure what it was, and that call was something that the researchers had never heard before.
Speaker 1:There's another story in the book that I think is really telling book that I think is really telling and that is when wolves were first let into Yellowstone, a national park in the United States that had never had wolves.
Speaker 1:They were reintroducing wolves into this park. This was quite a long time ago and coyotes had been in the park for a long time. And the researchers there was one particular researcher I interviewed, robert Crabtree, who was there at the time and they heard the coyotes and they first thought, oh, maybe it's the wolves and maybe they've made a kill. And they went closer and it was a coyote. The wolves had made a kill and the coyotes were had made a completely different, created a completely different word or call for this situation. And every time that would happen it would be used again by the coyotes. But they, those coyotes, had not seen those in the park, had not seen wolves, they had no idea what a wolf was. But they saw the wolves make a a kill and knew that we better make a new call for this. And you know, sure enough, wolves are not very friendly to coyotes sometimes.
Speaker 2:I think those are both really great examples because I think it does show how you know creativity and language. And, again, adaptability, being able to be like innovative with your words and your expression is a form of creativity. And maybe just to take a step back, and it's probably something I should have done earlier in the interview, but you've got the creative lives of animals and throughout the book you're kind of mapping. I think to some extent you're working with the definition of creativity which you know I wrote down a dynamic process in which novel and meaningful behaviors are generated by individuals.
Speaker 1:Novel and meaningful behaviors right are generated by individuals. Novel and meaningful behaviors right are generated by individuals with the possibility of affecting others at cultural, species and evolutionary levels. And I I would like to kind of parse that for you in terms of how I I thought of it. First of all, again, the dynamic process I think is really. Creativity as a quality is enormous, but the creativity process is something I think that we can understand and that we do, and all the other species in the world do it too. And so I decided on novel and meaningful in which novel and meaningful behaviors. One of the reasons I used meaningful novel was kind of a given, but I really thought it was important, if we were going to talk about animals, to use the word meaningful, because it was important that the idea that meaning animals are making meaning through this process, they have the ability to make meaning for themselves. We do not have to give that meaning to them. They're very capable of doing that themselves and I think that is an extremely important idea in animal studies.
Speaker 2:That is an extremely important idea in animal studies. Yeah, you reiterate it throughout the book, whether it's talking about desire or beauty. So often, if it's not desirable or beautiful to us, it doesn't mean it's not desirable or beautiful to them. And people really do kind of struggle with how to place animals as the subject of thought for them, not for ourselves and what our standards are. And I think that that concept of meaningful for them, that community, that species, that individual, is really, as you say, quite a powerful statement.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do think that. I think that meaning is one of the things that communication and creativity do. When someone is being creative, I think they are trying to make meaning, whether it's an animal or a human in some way. Did you hear that? I?
Speaker 1:heard that I'm so sorry Making meaning Making, meaning, yes, kira, the rest of that definition and this was something that actually Annie Potts said to me why is it generated by individuals? Can't groups make? And, yes, they can, obviously they can. But one of the things I found out in the book was that even among ants and bees, animals have personalities and that, you know, different personalities do different things In the ants. There's a book by Mark Moffat who's an orgasmic and evolutionary biologist who studied with EO Wilson, and quite an interesting book called Ants, a Cast of Millions, and he talks about the fact that you know when he would just lie there and watch ants.
Speaker 1:It's very obvious that some ants are kind of lazy. They don't always do their job. Some ants are, you know, really, with the program and they're doing everything they should. And the same, you know, with bees. There are certain things. Certainly they have their particular positions, for instance when they're going to find food, and that process in itself is so amazing and so rigorous, in a way, things that you would never be able to do. And their communication is by waggle dances, and waggle dances are taught. Waggle dances are taught, you know, waggle dances are taught. They are not the waggle dance itself may be innate, but the actual use of it is taught, let's put it that way and and that says something again about meaning you know that that bees know what this waggle dance means and how this is used as compared to that.
Speaker 2:And again, I think you, you keep bringing up like teaching, and I think what's interesting is often we focus on teaching, and it reminds me again of the high school students, because anyone who's been a teacher knows just because you're teaching something, those in the audience aren't getting it the same way right, like they have their own twists, their own ideas. You've got some students that really pick it up and run with it immediately, and you've got other students who take a long time or maybe never quite get it, but they really good at other things, or so you know and I think that that's part of the creative process is, even if you're taught something, you don't we don't carbon copy, and I would suspect the same thing is true for animals you don't're taught something you don't we don't carbon copy. And and I would suspect the same thing is true for animals you don't get taught something and you don't, you don't make a carbon copy of the same thing. You might be able to dance together, but you'll always have your slight variation or or adaptation exactly.
Speaker 1:You know the idea, I think, think I talk about Howard Gardner's types of intelligence and you know, again, I you know I'm I'm also writing from a long, you know a long period of teaching and what I may have learned and was, I wouldn't say fashionable, but you know, gardner was in some ways very fashionable in education because he said what teachers knew was exactly what you just said. Some students actually, you know, would come in and I say this in the book too and I, it's very true Sometimes the students that did everything exactly the way you said it and kept saying to you is this what you want? Is this what you want? You know those were not the most creative students. I'm not saying that they couldn't be, but there were ways that they had been taught before or things that made them the way they are wanting to please, wanting to get an A, wanting to be the best. When some of my best students were the students who were problem students, and I often got problem students because it was art and they had been kicked out of every other class. Seriously, and also, I love problem students, I love things that are unusual, I love people who are funky, I love people that are different and I, you know, I embrace that. I don't. You know the chairs, and literally. I mean, when I was in high school, I once went into another classroom and I think it was a history classroom, and I just looked around Obviously I must have known this from my own days in high school All the chairs were straight, straight lines and I thought I haven't seen a straight row in my class. You know, we had tables and people were doing all sorts of things, you know, at odd times, and it's just a whole different atmosphere. I tried to make a studio atmosphere, but that's exactly what I think is important in understanding both personality and how that works in creativity and how that works in creativity.
Speaker 1:But the fact that animals one of the reasons I, in terms of the research, animals having personality, grew out of creative research. So, for instance and this was a research piece by Holkamp, and I'm forgetting her first name, but she's a female researcher who has researched hyenas for many, many years, and what's interesting too, of course, is she's a woman and she also has now all these other women who are, you know, directors of particular research programs, research programs, and hyenas, of course, are an animal that we, even, you know, even today, are maligned for just being themselves, and you know, and it's also said, oh, they're just scavengers. Well, no, actually they hunt quite a bit of their own food, and I think it's something like 50% or even more. Yes, they do eat carrion, but that's also a good thing as well.
Speaker 1:But the particular research or experiment that they did was they got together a box that was. They got together a box that was and this was on whether this was definitely on creativity a box that had a sliding door. It wasn't a sliding door, but it could be opened and there was meat inside. But the hyenas had to figure out how to get that open box open, and so they would put the box out and then put the truck they were in a little bit further away and then videotape the whole thing. So you're looking at hours and hours of videotapes.
Speaker 1:They worked with a specific I think it was 43 hyenas in the Masamara Sanctuary no, not sanctuary, a wildlife area and what they found was it wasn't persistence that actually did the job, it wasn't just trying which is really a good thing in brainstorming to keep trying new things, keep trying different ways to do it. But the hyenas that were considered most creative were the ones that stuck with it but also did try different ways, and they were kind of committed to it from the very beginning, and that, I think, is really interesting. They weren't afraid to make mistakes, which is a big part of the creative process and that you know. Like you said about students, I mean the students who are so afraid to make mistakes again, you know, in terms of the creative process for animals and us, is then you miss things. You miss these incredible accidents.
Speaker 2:Well, the reason I kind of brought up those mistakes and then I think the Ahina example also brings it, is because that part of the definition that says individuals. So you'd say you know, can't groups? I think groups can come together creatively. But I think that it's how different individuals come together, like I think there are always individuals and even if someone is being taught something, how you learn and how you put it, like the coming together of different individuals is creative, because none of the individuals together are necessarily approaching the problem in a kind of carbon copy way. And just I mean to finish up this definition here. So yes, we've got a dynamic process that's novel and meaningful and it's done by individuals with the possibility of affecting others. And here I think is quite important. So we wanted to revisit this. You know, the cultural, species and evolutionary level and that's one of the big takeaways from your book is kind of thinking across these levels. So could you maybe walk us through that for a minute?
Speaker 1:The last chapter of the book is on culture, and it's interesting that in some ways, when the book first came out, you know that was already an idea out there.
Speaker 1:You know I didn't make that up that animals have culture, but it wasn't quite as well known as it is now. And you go on the web now and it's like animals have cultures, animals have cultures, animals have cultures. I was nowhere when I was finishing the book and I actually finished the book first draft in 2017. But I still had that cultural thing in there and one of the reasons why and I do think you know I'm trying to mention researchers that have been very important, and one of them is Hal Whitehead and Luke Rendell and their book, the Cultural Lives of Whales and Dolphins, and that came out quite a while ago and it was an amazing book to read. I think everybody who's in animal studies should read it. Everybody who's in animal studies should read it. You know, one of the things they say is that how they their own creative process is that the only reason we happened on this, the only reason we were able to do this, was long, long long. You know, periods in the ocean and a lot of happenstance, a great deal of happenstance. That's how they describe it. But that idea that, for instance, also like the humpbacks making bubble nets, that now is part of culture. For them it's been passed down. So these things do get, all these things that were somebody's creative insight. And when I say somebody, I mean animals. I mean I just I've been at this so long, I just don't even. Sometimes people don't even know if I'm talking about an animal or a person. They're like, oh, did you have another baby? I was like no, that would have been difficult. But you know I'm talking about an animal here. So you know, that kind of social learning certainly is important in passing that down. Social learning certainly is important in passing that down. But the initial creativity that inspired the idea, I think is important to remember too. And the meaning. And sometimes the meaning gets passed down as well, and sometimes it doesn't just like in cultural memes that we have, memes that we have. All the various levels and complications and complexity of culture are found in animal cultures just as they are in ours. But the species of course will happen, and this is kind of what's interesting about Hal Whitehead and Luke Rendell's research on whale and dolphin cultures is that, you know, when they looked at songs of whales we'll just take that the songs of humpback whales changed through both cultural evolution and revolution, and that was something I really found fantastic.
Speaker 1:You know that there was again this very complex way of looking at culture in in in animals, and so just a little bit about their songs. They've heard, we, we, as if we were the researchers, we, we've heard, and even as people listening to whale songs, have heard large-scale changes in these songs over decades. So the songs constantly change and this is the cultural evolution and the males learn these songs to conform and the males learn these songs to conform. They incorporate these changes because they change, but they incorporate these changes so that at some point everybody's singing the same song. But the cultural evolution is extremely, that's very subtle and again, it occurs over long periods.
Speaker 1:And what's interesting about that is the, that kind of combining and mixing, and you know remixing is, you know, I always sound like we're talking about, you know, contemporary rock music and rap. I mean, it's a matter we do that and of course, visual artists do that as well, who are people, but animals do that as well. So it is a very complex process. It isn't simple like oh, here we got this. Now. We're always going to do this Because those things change over time. That's the cultural evolution. Now a rapid and a complete replacement also happens where all of a sudden, over a period of we'll call this sudden because it's less than two years, so in whale song, less than two years is really a revolution the songs change pretty suddenly and suddenly everybody is singing that song. So novelty. That's where the novelty comes in in the ongoing culture.
Speaker 2:All right. So, if I understand you, if I understand you correctly, when we're talking about creativity, right, you've got individuals who are doing things in social and environmental contexts, but this results in changes that can be like results in the evolution. And by evolution here you're not necessarily meaning like biological evolution In the Darwinian sense, you're meaning cultural evolution. But I'm assuming here that cultural evolution can have biological impacts.
Speaker 1:Yes, it does, it does and I was going to get to that. That's where we get to biodiversity and that's where we get to evolution, Because these things do change, for instance in Birds of Paradise. And I think this is interesting too, because it says something about females in animals, that the females are not always as has been thought by male researchers for so long, kind of like, oh well, you don't matter, the males do everything. No, the females actually drive not just the cultural evolution but the actual evolution of the way the males look of birds of paradise, because the birds of paradise are always trying to get the females to like what they do, and if the females don't like it, well, they don't make so over time.
Speaker 1:Really, what you're seeing in those and I think I say that in the book like if you get onto the Cornell ornithology site and you start looking at the birds of paradise project, you just have become an addict. I had to break away, you know, you just want to sit there all the time Like no, no, sorry, can't eat, no, yeah, it's incredible.
Speaker 2:I've been wondering if like taking to birds is an age thing, because when I was younger I didn't really think about birds, but the older I get, the more I'm like birds. Why did nobody tell me birds are so badass, All these colors and these flips and these twirls, I mean. And then you speak to Jonathan Balcombe and you're like fish, Fish are amazing and just the diversity.
Speaker 2:That's incredible In fish, the and I'm forgetting the name of the fish the cuttlefish the ones that change multiple colors, the cuttlefish that can hold like two colors on different sides of their body at the same time?
Speaker 1:Yes, but is the word cuttlefish Cuttlefish? There's another word I'm thinking of. I haven't known them as cuttlefish. Okay, so they do this two different patterns of of on either side of their body and they do that. The males will do that with the female side to look like a female I'm sorry, a male while the other, the other side, is looking like a male.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get you so like cuttlefish and I've seen videos of it. It's actually quite remarkable because they're able to have so. A cuttlefish, like most of us, has one body, but somehow they're able to manipulate different sides of their body to show different colors. So on the one side of their body they're busy flirting with a potential mate, and on the other side of their body they're busy flirting with a potential mate and on the other side of their body they're busy being like hey, back off buddy, or they're showing they're making themselves look like a female so that another male is not threatening them. And it's just really fascinating to watch and the fact that they're doing it at the same time and such it's incredible.
Speaker 1:And the way and it's too the way they actually make that happen and this has to do with other celophods, the octopus is that they have little points, little muscles that they actually manipulate to make those changes happen. So, again, it's not an innate thing, it is something like choreographing your body, you know, which is pretty astounding. So, yeah, those kinds of things really, really, I think, are important. It's always the details that I found that were really important, these little tiny but they weren't tiny at all and it was the difference, again, between innateness, what people think. All behavior in animals is innate, you know, it's not really that they choose.
Speaker 2:And that somehow, like inneptness, is unimportant. But really, if you look at this changing in color, changing in like dances these are, as you said in the definition, meaningful to the animals involved and, for that very reason alone, should be taken seriously. It shouldn't be like fobbed off as somehow being less than and so the last thing and I'd be remiss if I didn't say it before we get to your quotes is, throughout the book you bring up all of these different components that we've spoken about. You know, you talk about intelligence, you talk about communication, you speak about play, which we haven't had the chance to touch on here, but I really think yeah, yeah, which is important for creativity.
Speaker 2:Play is very important and it creates opportunities, I think, to make those mistakes you were talking about or to test ideas.
Speaker 2:Maybe part of that incubation period talking about, or to test ideas, maybe part of that incubation period the built environment just how absolutely amazing animals are at not only using built environments but also creating built, and the social weavers.
Speaker 2:After reading that chapter of yours, I went and looked at social weavers. Those nests are insane. But then you also talk about sex. You talk about emotional agency and culture, which we've spoken a fair bit about. But then you also talk about sex. You talk about emotional agency and culture, which we've spoken a fair bit about. But the chapter on sex I was really fascinated with, because maybe this is everyone, maybe I'm just lewd, but I was fascinated by it because it seemed to sidestep a lot of the ideas of sex. I think people hear sex and they maybe get a bit excited. But you had this section in there where you spoke about clownfish from Finding Nemo and how and I laughed so hard because had Pixar actually taken on the fact that, had Nemo's mom disappeared, his dad would have become his mom, the Pixar film would have had a different slant to it.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, because then Nemo would have mated with his father. I mean it was just, you know, yeah, I mean it's just very, very different. And of course you know it's a Pixar movie and they would never put that in because they want kids to watch it.
Speaker 2:But I thought how creativity was part of sex was so interesting. Like you spoke about how I've never heard ever of different animals making like masturbatory tools, like that's not something that would have crossed. But you were exactly right when you said in the chapter sex whether it's doing a mating dance as a bird of paradise. Sex is a really great motivator to be creative and when you put it that way, a lot of animal behavior takes on a different tone. It's quite fascinating.
Speaker 1:And the big thing in that, and one of the biggest points I wanted to make with it, is that it's about choice. Animals make choices. They have the ability to make judgments and choices. Sometimes those are in terms of animal morality. They are judgments that have to do with a sense of morality In sex. They have the ability to not just procreate but actually decide what kind of sex they would like, whether it's same sex or different sex. You know, different partner sex are all different kinds of. There's lots of room in there. I mean, when you start learning about animals and sex, you're like God, we're so boring.
Speaker 1:You know, we really have really not progressed much.
Speaker 2:Anyway, before we go too deep into talking about animal sex, perhaps you could, perhaps, I know. I mean, I actually think I would like to talk more about animal sex, but we're running out of time, unfortunately, so we'll have have to. We'll have to revisit it at another time. Do you have a quote ready for us, carol?
Speaker 1:I do. I decided that I would read a quote, or give you a quote from tom reagan, who was a friend of mine. I met many, many years ago well, not before I got into animal rights, but after and he saw my paintings in a gallery and left his card. And when I went to the gallery, this guy is Tom Reagan. Of course I had the case for animal rights on my bookshelf, but I hadn't read it. I was bringing up my son, I was working full time making art.
Speaker 1:We all have books on our shelves we haven't read. Well, it was funny because when I told him he said, did you read it? I said no. He said don't read it, you don't need to, you're already there, which was kind of cool. You know, we've stayed friends for a long time. I became friends with his wife. We used to go visit them and, and you know, I very sad when he died, and then Nancy, I when he died, and then Nancy.
Speaker 1:I think it's interesting though and I'm reading a very specific quote from him that even in his work early on, was the idea of intersectional. I'm a critical animal theorist and the intersectional nature of animal rights is something that he talked about a long time ago and he says the theory that underlies the case for animal rights is something that he talked about a long time ago and he says the theory that underlies the case for animal rights shows that the animal rights movement is a part of, not antagonistic to, the human rights movement. The theory that rationally grounds the rights of animals also grounds the rights of humans. Thus, those involved in the animal rights movement are partners in the struggle to secure respect for human rights the rights of women, for example, or minorities or workers. The animal rights movement is cut from the same moral cloth as these, and I wanted to say that first, because I'm a critical animal studies theorist.
Speaker 1:I always have been, I've always felt that way, and that isn't that. I think that humans are more important than animals because I think we are equal and that's very, very, very important to me, that animals and humans are equal, all the species. We're one species in the middle of 7.8, it's always a different number, a million species. They change it. I know in the book I think it's eight something, and then recently I looked at it, it was 7.8. Unfortunately, that might mean we'd lost a lot of species, and I think it's something that people outside animal rights and animal studies should, I think, hear about that. This is a fight for compassion and justice. That's what we need to grow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've heard it so much on the show Like it's not, I think. I think the knee jerk reaction that somehow, by focusing on animals, you're not also taking seriously and and it is a you know, there are, I think, valid critiques, but we all have our focus points and if you look at just the lack of consideration on animals across academia, I think it's okay to take a stand and say we're focused on animals, but that doesn't mean that doesn't mean and I think that there's some sort of centrifugal. I always get it wrong, but there's a force that expands outwards from it. When you start from an ethical position I mean, what brought me to animals was a feminist perspective and I think once I started looking at animals and reading and reading the back of my food labels, I started thinking about my clothing, and so it's a centrifugal force, it pushes outwards.
Speaker 2:And I think it's a matter of and maybe that's why Tom said that to you is, once you've had that mind shift, I think you can build on it, you can expand on it. And when he said that to you at the gallery, and I think that that's a really important thing is that once you've made that kind of connection, it's not exclusive, it's not about saying us versus them. It's about saying the world isn't only for us. Really, I think that's a really important and powerful statement Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean the Henry Beston thing about we are caught in this net of time and travail and time. You know, it's just a wonderful way to look at it and we are, we're all caught in this together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we all have finite time, limited time to be on the world, to live, to make mistakes, to be creative. Carol, it's been amazing talking to you. Your book is really a wonder. I've enjoyed our conversation and all the little bits and bobs. Before you go, do you want to tell us a little bit about what you're working on now?
Speaker 1:I'm working on a couple of things. I'm writing an op-ed right now on AI and animals, because I have that background and I've written about AI and a life before, not specifically about animals, but one essay was, but this one is very much about animals. And the other thing is I'm kind of looking at another, another book, another book I have to kind of decide. I always think very large. So I have to kind of decide how, how, what the overarching topic is.
Speaker 1:And then mostly I just write books so I can learn stuff, and if I'm not learning stuff, I'm not interested. So I I really want to write something that I'll I'll learn about, and of course it's going to be about animals, you know, but I want to learn about animals and something or animals and how they deal with something that I'm interested in. And the other thing is I have a graphic novel that I need to complete. I started it and it's called Trump and the Animals. It's a graphic on it's. Two chapters are online and I'm not going to, you know, give it to anybody to publish. I'm just doing it on my own and but you know, then I can go as slow as I want to.
Speaker 2:It's amazing. So you gave us this really detailed background of all of the things you've done, you know, in leading up to kind of getting to this book. But it's incredible because you still see threads of that kind of throughout what you're doing now. Right, you're still being an artist, you're still working in AI Really amazing. I can't wait to see what you do with this new book, and I have to go and check out that graphic novel, trump and the Animals. This sounds like something I need to have a look at. I'll send you the link. Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes as well for the listeners. Carol, it's been a delight talking to you today, thank you. Thank you so always to Jeremy John for the logo and Gordon Clark for the bad music. This is the Animal. Turn with me, claudia Hüttenfelder.
Speaker 1:For more great iRule podcasts, visit iRulePodcom. That's I-R-O-A-R-P-O-D dot com.
